[Politics] Venezuela,over to you.

[larus]

That’s your argument? That because all the policies aren’t adopted in all said countries they aren’t good?

My point was that it just goes to show how people have been led like sheep into believing that Jeremy Corbyn is some kind of terrifying left-wing extremist, rather than a centre-left democratic socialist who is proposing economic policies that are perfectly normal across Europe and the rest of the developed world.

Of course there is no country on Earth where a government has come to power and enacted absolutely everything in the Labour Party manifesto, but significant elements of Labour's economic policies are absolutely commonplace across the developed world.

So then you’d also agree that the other countries in your list where they aren’t state controlled must be running fine as privately run, otherwise they’d be nationalised. Because your argument seems to be that as these countries have these things state controlled they must be good, so the reverse must apply, the ones they haven’t got as state controlled must be good.

So more are not state controlled - so that appears to be the way to go then.

 

[GT49er]

People simply believe what the mainstream media tell them about Jeremy Corbyn being some kind of terrifying leftist bogeyman with bonkers extreme-left policies.

Just as 'They' did with Wedgwood Benn in 1975. "Wedgwood Benn is a terrible leftist bogeyman - if you vote against joining the Common Market you must be a terrible leftist Commie-lover like him". Worked bloody well in frightening little old ladies into voting for joining Europe back then!

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

So then you’d also agree that the other countries in your list where they aren’t state controlled must be running fine as privately run, otherwise they’d be nationalised. Because your argument seems to be that as these countries have these things state controlled they must be good, so the reverse must apply, the ones they haven’t got as state controlled must be good.

So more are not state controlled - so that appears to be the way to go then.

I think I’ve made my point very clear. People are always asking to hear examples of other countries where Corbyn's socialist ideas have worked. I have given examples which also include most of Central Europe.

Whilst we are debating the apparent ‘extreme socialist polocies’ of JC, this is happening right now in our country...

Half of maternity units closed at some point last year
Teaching crisis
Nursing crisis
Policing crisis
Armed forces crisis
Wages in decline
Private prison crisis
Private train companies defrauding the state
Private nhs providers defrauding the state
Private academies closing shop
Waiting lists for nhs services at record levels
A/E waiting times at record highs
People dying in hospital corridors
Social care crisis
Food bank useage at record high
House building at lowest levels since 1920’s

Every argument has been lost, every front has fallen. All that is left is smears, propaganda and spin.

 

[GT49er]

If all of these are so good and vote winners, why aren’t they ALL done in ALL of these countries?

Well, just to pick on one of the examples.........

Publicly owned national grid:
Denmark, USA, Sweden, New Zealand

Because in this country Thatcher's 'Greed is Good' mantra persuaded many people to grab shares being sold off on the cheap so they could make a quick profit. Ergo, greedy people thought it was a great idea (albeit very short-termism, but what the hell when there's quick and easy bucks out there?) and voted to line their pockets. Big surprise. Big shame.

 

[beorhthelm]

My point was that it just goes to show how people have been led like sheep into believing that Jeremy Corbyn is some kind of terrifying left-wing extremist, rather than a centre-left democratic socialist who is proposing economic policies that are perfectly normal across Europe and the rest of the developed world.

are there others proposing to print £500bn or local equivilent to fund everything?

and with that long list of crisis, seem to be confusing social policy with economic policy. or is that just highlighting the heart of the matter, in socialist thinking everything is an economic problem that can be solved by throwing more money at it?

 

[ManOfSussex]

are there others proposing to print £500bn or local equivilent to fund everything?

Does that happen in Sweden then?

 

[Juan Albion]

Ignoring all your bickering, in answer to the OP, I'd say the video is reasonably accurate. It doesn't mention some key factors, though, such as the government blatantly overruling established democratic processes. Ironically, given that it is often held up as an example of socialism failing, it seems to me that Chavez and Maduro both have similarities with Trump in the way they have tried to behave like dictators.

What might be an interesting discussion would be what we would be saying about Venezuela if the price of oil had stayed high. Of course that didn't happen and the country is now a total basket-case with inflation heading towards - and past - 1,000,000%.

 

[jackanada]

To faintly respond to OP.

Why the comparison to Venezuela. Corbyns policies are basically centre ground in Scandinavian countries. Given a clear working majority a full term of Corbyn might make us as socialist as well known Communist basket case Germany.

Venezuela is dependent on oil and has crippling sanctions from the us and the CIA devoting massive resources to destabilising it. America's opinion of its politics are more relevant to it's economic woes than the actual politics.

 

[Simster]

What a load of pathetic twaddle. You’ve just confirmed that you are blinkered and there’s no point trying to discuss anything with you. You want to ramble on about whether JRM has bought condoms. Whatever pal - you ain’t worth the effort. I’ll leave you to throw more abuse like the Clamp does. More stuff like knuckle-dragger comments no doubt.

JRM is a dangerous parliamentarian who uses fillibustering to get in the way of putting in legislation he doesn't like. He's also incredibly deluded. This is someone who campaigned aggressively for Brexit but squeals to his right-wing press chums warning of widespread disorder whenever some aspect of negotiations doesn't go his way. You'll also note that during his Brexit campaigning, at no point did he say it might take 50 years to reap the benefits - the duplicitous, smarmy little prick.

So what if people look his privileged background and draw conclusions? It's not always fair, but it doesn't seem unreasonable here. He is absolutely not a man of the people is he?

 

[Simster]

To faintly respond to OP.

Why the comparison to Venezuela. Corbyns policies are basically centre ground in Scandinavian countries. Given a clear working majority a full term of Corbyn might make us as socialist as well known Communist basket case Germany.

Venezuela is dependent on oil and has crippling sanctions from the us and the CIA devoting massive resources to destabilising it. America's opinion of its politics are more relevant to it's economic woes than the actual politics.

This seems like classic leftist apologist for dreadful Venezuelan governance. For example, it takes no account of pragmatism - if the US have undue influence on Venezuela, then their government ought to be treading the awkward tightrope of trying not to antagonise them. They have singularly failed to do that.

And anyway, you're completely wrong. Their issues are far more to do with Maduro's insane brand of socialism - where he has expropriated things that don't belong to him - a GM car plant for example, which led to GM ceasing production completely in that country. He has also imposed price controls on various goods, thus undermining all private firms, domestic and international. What firm is going to invest in a country if they are then told how much they are allowed to sell their goods for? Then there is the rampant corruption that has increased as an increasingly vulnerable government looks to pay off various interests to keep them all onside during this gross incompetence. They have even mismanaged the state owned oil firm PDVSA, which has directly led to a 50% reduction in production.

And I haven't even mentioned the rigged elections until now. Blame the US all you like, but if I was an American I'd be annoyed that the US are interfering at all because Venezuela's mess has needed no help from them whatsoever.

 

[beorhthelm]

Ignoring all your bickering, in answer to the OP, I'd say the video is reasonably accurate. It doesn't mention some key factors, though, such as the government blatantly overruling established democratic processes. Ironically, given that it is often held up as an example of socialism failing, it seems to me that Chavez and Maduro both have similarities with Trump in the way they have tried to behave like dictators.

this is mainly because the socialists held it up as an example to follow.

it all well saying nice Uncle Corbyn will only apply some european style social democractic policies, the trouble is he and friends want to go further to the left, to democratic socialism just like Venezuela. and we see in Venezuela actual real crisis for population without functional economy or institutions (other than army and police, they seem to continue to work) what real socialism leads to.

it might be interesting how they would have done with higher oil price, i suspect they'd have just been more inefficent (and corrupt, Chavez's daughter is apparently a billionaire). it would also been interesting if they didnt nationalise private commerce and property (expropriation noted in the video), trying to run everything from the state. it doesnt work.

 

[wellquickwoody]

Does that happen in Sweden then?

But, as you have already stated, not ALL of these countries do ALL of the things that Corbyn is trying to bribe the electorate with. To do all that he offers would bankrupt UK PLC.

 

[Simster]

But, as you have already stated, not ALL of these countries do ALL of the things that Corbyn is trying to bribe the electorate with. To do all that he offers would bankrupt UK PLC.

I agree. He should certainly implement some of his policies but doing all of them would bankrupt the nation.

Regardless, I don't want to be unfair on Mr Corbyn. I'd say comparisons between JC's Labour and Venezuela are absurdly unfair, or at least would be if he wasn't so prepared to back their mismanagement, implying the blame lies with American imperialism. It clearly doesn't.

 

[Simster]

this is mainly because the socialists held it up as an example to follow.

You do talk some bollocks at times. How many socialists are going to hold up a failing, neo-dictatorship as "an example to follow" when there are half a dozen SUCCESSFUL socialist states on our doorstep? For f*cks sake, you do like to present yourself as an impartial capitalist when you're clearly nothing of the sort.

 

[beorhthelm]

You do talk some bollocks at times. How many socialists are going to hold up a failing, neo-dictatorship as "an example to follow" when there are half a dozen SUCCESSFUL socialist states on our doorstep? For f*cks sake, you do like to present yourself as an impartial capitalist when you're clearly nothing of the sort.

our neighbours are social democracies, not socialist. btw i agreed entirely with your previous post, where you extolled the benefits of capitialism and private ownership, put it better than i would have, so i dont see where im talking bollocks.

 

[Simster]

our neighbours are social democracies, not socialist. btw i agreed entirely with your previous post, where you extolled the benefits of capitialism and private ownership, put it better than i would have, so i dont see where im talking bollocks.

Seriously, what are you talking about? There are plenty of socialist states (and major parties) in the EU, and at the EU parliament they fall into an umbrella called "Party of European Socialists". You clearly don't know what socialism is if you're denying that.

So this is absolute rubbish:

this is mainly because the socialists held it up as an example to follow.

 

[beorhthelm]

Seriously, what are you talking about? There are plenty of socialist states (and major parties) in the EU, and at the EU parliament they fall into an umbrella called "Party of European Socialists". You clearly don't know what socialism is if you're denying that.

that would be the group describing themselves as "brings together Socialist, Social Democratic, Labour and Democratic Parties", so not exactly hardcore socialism. not going to get into an argument over these well established definitions when we agree on where Venezuala has gone wrong.

 

[beorhthelm]

Corbyn on Chavez " ... an inspriation to all of us fighting back against austerity and neo-liberal economics in Europe, showed us there is a different and a better way of doing things. Its called socialism, its called social justice and is something Venezuela have made a big step towards".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FbWsINjpRY

 

[Simster]

that would be the group describing themselves as "brings together Socialist, Social Democratic, Labour and Democratic Parties", so not exactly hardcore socialism. not going to get into an argument over these well established definitions when we agree on where Venezuala has gone wrong.

But what grinds my gears is your one-eyed nonsensical opinion that socialists hold up Venezuela as an example to follow. Clearly that is absolute crap and is like saying capitalists hold up, say, Chile as an example to follow.

Corbyn on Chavez " ... an inspriation to all of us fighting back against austerity and neo-liberal economics in Europe, showed us there is a different and a better way of doing things. Its called socialism, its called social justice and is something Venezuela have made a big step towards".

FIVE years ago. Under Chavez, not Maduro (who has done far more damage). You also have to remember the conditions under which Chavez came to power - he was far easier to admire than current clown.

 

[beorhthelm]

FIVE years ago. Under Chavez, not Maduro (who has done far more damage). You also have to remember the conditions under which Chavez came to power - he was far easier to admire than current clown.

Maduro is following on the policies and style. Chavez was nationalising oil, industry and agriculture, driving foreign and domestic investment out of the country from the mid-noughties. he set a 50% tax on oil which might sound like a good idea (nation rather than the corporations profit), however at that rate production wasnt profitable so oil fields were abandoned.