[Football] VAR who decides?

[dazzer6666]

Who is on todays VAR panel of three - anyone know ?

ultimately they are possibly more important than the refferee now . Also what happens when all the premier league and championship games are supported by VAR - this could mean 20 or 30 panels running at the same time . Thats say 90 experts/ analysts . Theres a job opportunity here , they'll be a whole range of new jobs created it would seem...... interesting

Stevie Wonder

 

[Audax]

With VAR, you're just swapping one controversy for another. Its all well and good saying it'll help clear up glaring errors, and in some instances it will. But you're also opening the door on a whole RAFT of other borderline calls, where VAR will be of little or no help whatsoever. You're still left with human beings reviewing an incident and making a call on it, giving their personal interpretation. How many times have we (as fans) and pundits looked at an incident from umpteen different angles, be it a foul, a dive, a handball, and still disagreed ? It happens ALL the time.

With the stakes in the game so high these days, the ref is going to be under increasing pressure to have another look at all manner of incidents that result in a big call being made, be it a red card or a crucial goal. I can see it playing out where a ref won't trust his own judgement any more. He'll want to check the pitchside monitor to make sure he's getting it right.

Once this comes in, the game as we know it will never be the same again.

All depends on how the system is structured and governed. Some sports have done it better than others. I think, though, that the smart approach for football is to start with it being fairly heavily restricted and then open it out a bit over time once the impacts of the limited system are seen. Theoretically, any system like this should only be used in resolving situations where there are clear right and wrong decisions. If it's to be used for anything where there can be fluid rules interpretations, then there needs to be very, very robust checks-and-balances involved, which probably means taking the decision out of the hands of a single individual and putting in the hands of all of the officials as a collective group where any change in decision requires a clear majority.

Wow that sounds absolutely fantastic - a great advert for VAR, its a yes from me

How sport A implements video review has no bearing on how good/bad video reviews will be for sport B. Unless sport B is stupid enough to directly copy sport A; it'll be rare that any two sports will have the same optimum system for video reviews.

My biggest worry is that it will lead to less goals being scored. If you look at the different scenarios most lead to a goal being disallowed not given. Only the offside ruling could work the other way.

I could see it leading to more goals scored, through the potential to a) encourage strikers to stay on their feet, and b) discourage defenders from all the shirt-pulling, arm-wrapping garbage.

That's precisely what happens now in cricket. When did you last see an umpire give a run out without checking upstairs? Never unless the batsman is at least a metre out of his crease.

I don't think this has got anything to do with umpires losing trust in their own judgement. I think it's got everything to do with the tech in cricket giving the definitive yes/no answer for a run out so quickly that it makes sense to use it except in the most blatant cases. Given that the consequences of getting it wrong can be pretty big. I have seen a couple of umpires get it wrong by not going upstairs and those couple of errors are far more negative than the cautious approach taken now.

 

[ropey9]

I hope they are sponsored like corner kicks a Bournemouth and Huddersfield.

 

[seagulls4ever]

The VAR doesn't need to look at that, does it? They have the goal-line system to look after that issue.

You caught me before my edit.

A poor example I used there, obviously. My point was that VAR, as I understand, cannot be used to award/issue goals, penalties or red cards that the officials have not awarded/issued - so a better example would be if a player stops a ball on the line with his hand and the officials do not see it, then it cannot be reviewed.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

You caught me before my edit.

A poor example I used there, obviously. My point was that VAR, as I understand, cannot be used to award/issue goals, penalties or red cards that the officials have not awarded/issued - so a better example would be if a player stops a ball on the line with his hand and the officials do not see it, then it cannot be reviewed.

I think you understand it wrong, tbh.

The VAR absolutely CAN draw the ref's attention to (for example) a red card offence that he has missed.

 

[Wrong-Direction]

Gonna be a few bookings tonight me thinks

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[seagulls4ever]

I could see it leading to more goals scored, through the potential to a) encourage strikers to stay on their feet, and b) discourage defenders from all the shirt-pulling, arm-wrapping garbage.

Why would is discourage defenders from shirt pulling? As I understand, VAR can only review decisions when the referee has issued or awarded something e.g. awarded a penalty for shirt pulling, but made a clear and obvious error in doing so as there was no shirt pulling. So if defenders get away with shirt pulling, VAR cannot review these - and it is doubtful whether these could constitute clear and obvious errors due to the subjectivity.

 

[LamieRobertson]

So 2 post match threads ..one for the ref one for var

 

[BensGrandad]

Why would is discourage defenders from shirt pulling? As I understand, VAR can only review decisions when the referee has issued or awarded something e.g. awarded a penalty for shirt pulling, but made a clear and obvious error in doing so as there was no shirt pulling. So if defenders get away with shirt pulling, VAR cannot review these - and it is doubtful whether these could constitute clear and obvious errors due to the subjectivity.

We are obviously looking at this differently as my interpretation is that if there was shirt pulling and no penalty given the VAR CAN bring the refs attention to it. We shall find out in time.

 

[seagulls4ever]

I think you understand it wrong, tbh.

The VAR absolutely CAN draw the ref's attention to (for example) a red card offence that he has missed.

Perhaps, I've only really read the BBC and Argus articles on the rules. On the BBC website it says:

"What the referee doesn't have the option of doing is saying is 'I don't know if that was a penalty or not, I'll look at the replay'," says International Football Association Board technical director David Elleray.

"We are requiring the referees to carry on refereeing as if there is no video assistant referee. If they make a clear and obvious error, they get told about it and I think most referees will welcome that."

On The Argus website it says:

Has Marriner taken charge of Albion before this season?

Marriner was the ref for the 0-0 Premier League draw against Palace at the Amex in November and, prior to that, the 1-0 home win over Newcastle in September when Tomer Hemed initially escaped punishment but was retrospectively suspended by the FA for treading on DeAndre Yedlin.

What about Swarbrick?

He was the ref for Albion's 1-0 defeat by Manchester United at Old Trafford in November, when cameras picked up Romelu Lukaku kicking out at Gaetan Bong from the corner which led to United's winner. The Belgian striker escaped sanction.

The Hemed and Lukaku incidents would not have been applicable to VAR.

This gave me the impression missed red card offences and other things that have been missed cannot be reviewed. Is there another article where this is explained more clearly?

 

[LamieRobertson]

There was a program last week by Sky on VAR ....Parish was a contributor .....''Zaha has never dived'' ...its the audio file and starts about 16 mins

http://www.skysports.com/football/n...debate-podcast-steve-parish-and-steve-mclaren


Next will be ''Palace fans are all angels''

 

[Easy 10]

My understanding of it is that in the event of a goal, red card or penalty, the VAR can draw the on-field ref's attention to something he missed.

This happened the other week in the Coppa Italia game between Juventus and Torino. Juve scored a goal and celebrated accordingly. But then the ref got a buzz from the VAR, as the VAR felt there had been a foul in the buildup - the foul occurred back near the touchline on the halfway line, so there was quite a passage of play between the incident and the ball hitting the back of the net. The ref went over to the touchline to review the foul, and decided it wasn't a foul, so the goal (his original decision) stood.

It was chaos though. One minute everyones celebrating a goal, then everythings put on hold while the ref checked the incident on the monitor. Then the Torino manager went SPACKO when the ref allowed the goal. Carnage.

 

[Birdie Boy]

Perhaps, I've only really read the BBC and Argus articles on the rules. On the BBC website it says:



On The Argus website it says:



This gave me the impression missed red card offences and other things that have been missed cannot be reviewed. Is there another article where this is explained more clearly?

Why would VAR not have cancelled out the United goal? The VAR can tell the ref about an incident not seen by him.

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[seagulls4ever]

My understanding of it is that in the event of a goal, red card or penalty, the VAR can draw the on-field ref's attention to something he missed.

This happened the other week in the Coppa Italia game between Juventus and Torino. Juve scored a goal and celebrated accordingly. But then the ref got a buzz from the VAR, as the VAR felt there had been a foul in the buildup - the foul occurred back near the touchline on the halfway line, so there was quite a passage of play between the incident and the ball hitting the back of the net. The ref went over to the touchline to review the foul, and decided it wasn't a foul, so the goal (his original decision) stood.

It was chaos though. One minute everyones celebrating a goal, then everythings put on hold while the ref checked the incident on the monitor. Then the Torino manager went SPACKO when the ref allowed the goal. Carnage.

This example is clearer to me, as there was a potential foul in the build up that led to a goal that had been awarded. But what about if the foul was a clear and obvious red card offence that the ref missed, and Juve didn't score. Can the potential red card offence then be reviewed?

 

[seagulls4ever]

Why would VAR not have cancelled out the United goal? The VAR can tell the ref about an incident not seen by him.

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I'm just quoting The Argus, where they seem to be talking about potential red card offences that the officials missed.

 

[Birdie Boy]

I'm just quoting The Argus, where they seem to be talking about potential red card offences that the officials missed.

But of an iffy one. Rather than a red card offence I was more thinking there was a foul so the goal should be disallowed. But if they did that then presumably a red would follow..

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[loco61]

i can only add having watch the equivalent of match of the day here in Germany (quite often since August) i have come to dislike VAR .. get on with the game!

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[Easy 10]

This example is clearer to me, as there was a potential foul in the build up that led to a goal that had been awarded. But what about if the foul was a clear and obvious red card offence that the ref missed, and Juve didn't score. Can the potential red card offence then be reviewed?

I'm not 100% sure tbh. Regardless of whether its off the back of a goal review, I'd assume that the ref can be alerted to a potential red card offence that he's missed, and go and have a look on the monitor to make a decision on it. Or if he's blown up for a foul, but isn't sure whether its a red card offence, he can then call for a video review and go and have another look before deciding if its a red ?

Getting complicated isn't it.

 

[seagulls4ever]

I'm not 100% sure tbh. Regardless of whether its off the back of a goal review, I'd assume that the ref can be alerted to a potential red card offence that he's missed, and go and have a look on the monitor to make a decision on it. Or if he's blown up for a foul, but isn't sure whether its a red card offence, he can then call for a video review and go and have another look before deciding if its a red ?

Getting complicated isn't it.

The BBC and Argus articles seem to suggest (to me), but don't make 100% clear, otherwise.

It is getting complicated - I think I’ll just sit back and observe the inevitable shambles that will occur. Although I do think it will be a good thing in the long run, once the problems are ironed out.

 

[halbpro]

I think the big advantage we've got in England is that other leagues are already doing this. It's in Serie A and MLS, where Howard Webb is heading up the video referee side of things. That's experience that, hopefully, the FA can learn from.