US: Man kills 'burglars'. Jury: Not Guilty

[drew]

He has saved the local authorities an immense sum of money , as these two criminals would have served lengthy prison sentences before being deported. Trailer trash should be dealt with in the same manner over here in the UK.

Not sure they would have got a lengthy prison sentence just for burglary. There is no mention at all in the report that they were armed. Are you on the same planet as everyone else?

That's because the liberal bleedin' hearts brigade always jump up on their high horse about how the poor burglar's human rights have been violated, or some crap like that.

Too right so lets shoot the scum. Better still, let's shoot them in the back just to prove there's nowhere to run either!!!!!!!!!

These two guys shouldn't have been on his neighbour's property.

Were they trespassing and there illegally? If the answer is yes, they should have absolutely no claim whatsoever and they lose their "human rights" in this case as a result of being on the property.

Didn't know trespassing was a capital offence in any state.

Unfortunately (or fortunately), I think in the UK we require a bit of U.S.-style justice and handling of criminals. This reminds me of the knife thread earlier on here.

So let's all carry guns and knives so we can act as Judge, Jury and Executioner.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for self defence when you are threatened with whatever force is necessary but this guy got himself involved and the fact that he told the despatcher he was going to kill them suggests premeditation. I think the race card is more involved here than anything else.

 

[Simster]

Are you allowed to shoot trespassers in some states? I can only presume that is the case in Texas.

Personally I wouldn't have a problem with it becoming law that burgulars can be disarmed using whatever means necessary. i.e. shooting someone in the back is a crime if there was any other way of preventing the burgular escaping.

 

[Mr C]

Year Homicide (includes murder, manslaughter and infanticide)3

2002/03 1,047
2003/04 904
2004/05 868
2005/06 766
2006/07 755

Seems to be working to me, obviously this is just one stat, but if you look overall at all our crime levels, they are more often decreasing than increasing. Don't believe everything the media portrays.

And don't believe everything the government portrays..... especially this current government which is so desperate they'll massage and manipulate figures and statistics to make everything look good.

 

[drew]

And don't believe everything the government portrays..... especially this current government which is so desperate they'll massage and manipulate figures and statistics to make everything look good.

What, unlike every other government before them. Get a life.

 

[Mr C]

What, unlike every other government before them. Get a life.

Excuse me? You really believe this government isn't the most corrupt administration in recent memory?

If so then your get a life comment is sadly misdirected.

 

[Simster]

And don't believe everything the government portrays..... especially this current government which is so desperate they'll massage and manipulate figures and statistics to make everything look good.

But he's proved that the murder rate is falling under Labour and the best you can do is say the figures are being massaged! Who says?


Now onto burgulary, since this is the other crime being discussed on this thread.

Source: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs07/hosb1107.pdf

"The number of domestic burglaries in England and Wales as measured by the BCS
showed no statistically significant change between 2005/06 and 2006/07. Since 1995 the number of domestic burglaries estimated by the BCS has fallen by 59 per cent from 1,770,000 to 726,000 in the 2006/07 BCS (Figure 4.2 and Table 2.01)."

 

[Barrel of Fun]

But he's proved that the murder rate is falling under Labour and the best you can do is say the figures are being massaged! Who says?

Are they not the American figures or do we have two people murdered a day?

"The number of domestic burglaries in England and Wales as measured by the BCS
showed no statistically significant change between 2005/06 and 2006/07. Since 1995 the number of domestic burglaries estimated by the BCS has fallen by 59 per cent from 1,770,000 to 726,000 in the 2006/07 BCS (Figure 4.2 and Table 2.01)."

That more likely to be linked to economic climate more than anything else. Certainly not to do with police presence on the beat!

 

[drew]

Excuse me? You really believe this government isn't the most corrupt administration in recent memory?

If so then your get a life comment is sadly misdirected.

The point I'm making is that they are no more and no less corrupt than any other government.

On what grounds to you say they are corrupt?

 

[Mr Blunt]

But he's proved that the murder rate is falling under Labour and the best you can do is say the figures are being massaged! Who says?


Now onto burgulary, since this is the other crime being discussed on this thread.

Source: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs07/hosb1107.pdf

"The number of domestic burglaries in England and Wales as measured by the BCS
showed no statistically significant change between 2005/06 and 2006/07. Since 1995 the number of domestic burglaries estimated by the BCS has fallen by 59 per cent from 1,770,000 to 726,000 in the 2006/07 BCS (Figure 4.2 and Table 2.01)."

Crime rate soars as criminals walk free | UK news | The Observer

i think that crime has gone up its the convictions that have gone down

 

[Simster]

Are they not the American figures or do we have two people murdered a day?

Ours, and yes we do.

That more likely to be linked to economic climate more than anything else. Certainly not to do with police presence on the beat!

I have no idea. And the gap between rich and poor has widened under Labour! However, that doesn't mean the poor have got poorer...

 

[Mr C]

The point I'm making is that they are no more and no less corrupt than any other government.

On what grounds to you say they are corrupt?

Plenty, but we'll come back to that, as we are wandering off the point slightly here. I don't think you can necessarily trust figures, wherever they come from. I think though that we have a problem with lack of respect and this mostly comes from a too soft approach to crime. That is the point I am getting at.

 

[fatbadger]

Killing people for theft is just cold-blooded murder. Nobody's propoerty is worth more than anybody's life. If you seriously think that human lives should be treated as more throwaway than property then you need to take a long, hard look at yourself. I suspect you have, and you've found a worthless creature. It's the only explanation. But, please remember, no matter how worthless you consider yourself to be, don't assume the rest of us are as worthless as you.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

The point I'm making is that they are no more and no less corrupt than any other government.

On what grounds to you say they are corrupt?

Assuming we're talking about the British government :

The false dossier on WMD in Iraq
Cash for honours

To name but two off the top of my head !

 

[drew]

Plenty, but we'll come back to that, as we are wandering off the point slightly here. I don't think you can necessarily trust figures, wherever they come from. I think though that we have a problem with lack of respect and this mostly comes from a too soft approach to crime. That is the point I am getting at.

And that's all down to the labour government of the last 10 years and absolutely nothing to do with the culture of greed and self interest created by the previous government of 19 years!!!!!!!

Don't get me wrong, I don't love the current government but as a society we would be considerably worse off under the tory alternative (imo).

 

[Barrel of Fun]

Ours, and yes we do.

I have no idea. And the gap between rich and poor has widened under Labour! However, that doesn't mean the poor have got poorer...

D'Oh! Just read the other bits and realised they were talking about us. I thought the numbers would be lower than that, but I guess it includes manslaughter etc.

Good point about the wealth gap. We have been told that Labour have reduced child poverty by 600,000, although there was a very interesting article stating that these figures were not to be believed and the govt. were well short of their target. I shall dig it out hopefully. I suspect crime rates will increase if/when we move into a full blown recession.

I am always unsure of whether to trust government figures. Call me a sceptic, but Labour do have a track record of twisting things to suit their own agenda. 'Sexing up' rings a bell or in this case, fudging.



This is another article of interest...(although slightly out of date)


Crime rate soars as criminals walk free

Observer investigation reveals Labour failure to halt slide in convictions

David Rose The Observer, Sunday May 28, 2006

The true picture of rising levels of violent crime in England and Wales and historically low conviction rates can be revealed today by The Observer.
An investigation shows that conviction rates for many of the most violent crimes have been in freefall since Labour came to power in 1997 and are now well below 10 per cent. The chronically low figures for convictions come at the same time as reports that violent crime is increasing.

An analysis of Home Office figures reveals that only 9.7 per cent of all 'serious woundings', including stabbings, that are reported to the police result in a conviction. For robberies the figure falls to 8.9 per cent and for rape, it is 5.5 per cent.

The figures show that, 10 years after Tony Blair pledged to be 'tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime', the chances of getting away with rape, robbery, sexual assault or seriously wounding another person have never been higher.

The Observer's analysis presents a fresh political challenge to the new Home Secretary, John Reid, who is struggling to get a grip over a department that he has described as 'not fit for purpose'. The figures show that recorded totals of these types of crime have risen steeply and while convictions have risen a little, they have not kept pace.

The record under Labour is worst for two crimes that arouse deep public concern. Serious woundings have risen by more than half in 10 years to almost 20,000 attacks each year, but their conviction rate has fallen from 14.8 to 9.7 per cent. Nearly 13,000 rapes were recorded by police in the year from April 2004, double the total for 1997, and over the period the conviction rate collapsed from 9.2 to 5.5 per cent. There was, however, a fall in the number of burglaries and the conviction rate for them rose - but only by 0.5 per cent.

The fall in total conviction rates began under the Tories in 1980 and Labour promised, before it won the 1997 election, that it would put this trend into reverse. Despite its failure to do so, Labour's ministers have claimed repeatedly that serious crime has been falling.

The Home Office insisted in a written statement yesterday that 'long term trends show substantial declines in levels of violent crimes'. The former Home Secretary Charles Clarke claimed earlier this year that the main problem society faces is not crime but the fear of it, and he set up a working party to investigate ways of making people believe the official position - that the huge rises in the levels of recorded violent and sexual crime are illusory, the result of more victims having the confidence to go to the police.

But The Observer investigation shows that since 1980, serious woundings have more than quadrupled, and recorded rapes have increased nearly elevenfold.

Last night, the country's top police officers working in the field rejected the claim that these figures did not reflect a real increase in the incidence of such crimes.

Terry Grange, Chief Constable of Dyfed Powys and the Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo) spokesman on domestic violence and sex crime, who heads a team of more than 20 researchers, said: 'I don't think you can sensibly deny that there is a higher incidence of rape and a more routine use of violence, and also of weapons-based violence where it used to be fists and feet.'

He was backed by another Acpo expert, Leicestershire Chief Constable Matt Baggott, and also by Crown Court judges spoken to by The Observer. According to Baggott, the surge in late-night drinking was exposing young people to higher risks of both physical and sexual violence.

He called for a full debate on this shift in social habits: 'We need to line up the data from the health service with what we get from the police. There is a profit-driven competitiveness around alcohol and one of its consequences is young people becoming victims. We need to begin a fundamental, objective analysis of what has been happening.'

Judges said that serious offences of this type were not only more common, but had become more brutal and degrading. Crown Court judges said that they were routinely hearing horrifying cases that were once so rare that they would have been reserved for members of the High Court bench.

Last week, John Reid, echoing a pledge made earlier by the Prime Minister, promised to 'rebalance criminal justice' in order to 'to make the public feel safe again ... I won't rest until the law and the justice system works for law-abiding people, not criminals.'

However, The Observer's investigation reveals that fewer than a third of the 20,000 people acquitted of serious offences in the Crown Court last year owed their freedom to 'not guilty' verdicts by judges, not juries. Cases were often discharged by judges, usually when the prosecution decided not to proceed - because cases were not ready, because victims or other witnesses withdrew or had been intimidated, or because Crown Prosecution Service lawyers decided that the evidence was 'unreliable'.

The answer, said judges, was not to make sweeping changes in the law to reduce suspects' protections, and hence risk wrongful convictions, but to find ways of getting the CPS and the police to work more closely together when investigating crimes so that the evidence is more watertight

 

[Mr C]

And that's all down to the labour government of the last 10 years and absolutely nothing to do with the culture of greed and self interest created by the previous government of 19 years!!!!!!!

Don't get me wrong, I don't love the current government but as a society we would be considerably worse off under the tory alternative (imo).

Hey I'm not saying the previous government was entirely blameless, but it has got worse under Labour. Do you remember many of these problems, as frequently and as bad, ten years ago? I certainly don't.

But I guess we'll get to find out in a few years once the Tories have been in power again

 

[MOG]

So he only shot them "when they came onto his property and confronted him" but they were both shot in the back?

If you are in fear of your life and a burglar is coming AT you then you have a case but shooting someone in the back when your life is no longer in jeopardy is cowardly and should be treated HARSHLY!

I'm sorry to drag this back to the original story.

Possible scenario:-

Confront 2 burglars on your property.
Burglars see shotgun and turn to run.
As they turn you shoot.
They are shot in the back.

I am not saying this is what happened, just considering it as a possibility.


Also, why do some people on here feel the need to turn almost every thread into a pro/anti government dispute?

 

[drew]

Hey I'm not saying the previous government was entirely blameless, but it has got worse under Labour. Do you remember many of these problems, as frequently and as bad, ten years ago? I certainly don't.

But I guess we'll get to find out in a few years once the Tories have been in power again

God help us if they do.

 

[bhaexpress]

That's because the liberal bleedin' hearts brigade always jump up on their high horse about how the poor burglar's human rights have been violated, or some crap like that.

Without wishing to be an NSC name dropper a rather senior Police Officer told me that if Martin had merely said the gun had gone off accidentally (under the circumstances not that had to believe) he would have got off easily. However Martin literally wanted 'his day in court' which he duly got and was convicted.

Personally the bloke he shot was a regular toe rag and frankly I don't the majority of us are any worse off without him.

 

[Barrel of Fun]

Don't get me wrong, I don't love the current government but as a society we would be considerably worse off under the tory alternative (imo).

That sort of comment always confuses me. You are judging the current Conservative government with the last government when Britain and the economy was an entirely different?