UK net migration hits record high

[Bold Seagull]

So what are you going to do with those poor souls that have no means to leave parts of Africa that are experiencing war, famine, disease and excruciating poverty.

Why would you not also wish to offer a haven to those many many millions, those that had no means to be well dressed, fed and watered with some financial means to get a place on a boat ??

Where exactly does your humanitarian compass start and finish ??

So are you saying if you can't help everyone, you help no one?

 

[Creaky]

So what are you going to do with those poor souls that have no means to leave parts of Africa that are experiencing war, famine, disease and excruciating poverty.

Why would you not also wish to offer a haven to those many many millions, those that had no means to be well dressed, fed and watered with some financial means to get a place on a boat ??

Where exactly does your humanitarian compass start and finish ??

There are practical ways to help those in the World experiencing famine, disease and poverty in their own country and I do support this personally as well as supporting the UK's foreign aid programme - unlike many who as well as taking an anti-immigration stance also oppose almost any level of foreign aid.

As for those in war zones all we can do in practical terms is to try and assist however we can those who manage to escape and at the same time support diplomatic means to end the conflict - I do not support direct intervention as history has shown that apart from the odd exception this seems to make matters worse.

Many of those that are managing to escape from the conflict in Syria do come from the professional classes, did have the money to enable their escape and yes you are right, there are millions who do not have the means, financially or practically to escape - does that mean we shouldn't help those that do?

 

[severnside gull]

That is far too simplistic, and the idea that we are to blame for children dying is a disgrace. The family involved in that dreadful tragedy was in living in safety in Turkey, and decided that Europe would offer them a better chance of a decent standard of living -fair enough from their point of view - and so took their chance on some old tub. Yes, the sight of the dead child was heart-rending, but that does not mean that folk in this country lack fundamental compassion. Indeed we brits always rally to the flag when tragedies occur, such as the earthquake in Nepal and the amount of foreign aid we give is always a source of contention. But the more realistic among us know that simply to take in migrants this year -and I suspect that is what we will do - will simply encourage even more and I am sure that even compassionate you will realise that this cannot go on.

No dispute that "simply taking in migrants" does not solve the wider problems nor that we do spend money. Lots.
The question currently is whether we are using selective expenditure to appease our consciences and avoid a greater collective responsibility to relieve avoidable suffering.
Economic migration is being painted as somehow something immoral. It isn't.
It is in many respects the foundation of our nation. Historically it has never been without issues, those on the inside wanting to close the doors on those who remain outside in order to preserve their (good) fortune. Now is no different.
The fundamental reasons for the current problems (and our culpability in causing them) can be argued and must be addressed. It is the wider picture but it doesn't deal with suffering now.. Suggesting that crossing one border (at the end of the day a random line on a map) means that those who suffer should not be entitled to dream of further betterment is a cop-out to absolve ourselves of responsibility for helping them.
It isn't, or it shouldn't be, about apportioning responsibility or blame. It should be about the practical relief of suffering born out of compassion.
Deal with the wider problems (the arguments for that are valid, no question) but it will take time and there will never be a perfect solution.
However, for me, no argument validly precludes acting in the face of suffering (no matter it's cause or how it manifests itself) right now.

I am not going to argue moral compass. I am sure we will always disagree and that shouldn't be an issue. You are right when you assert that my argument is overly simplistic. It's always going to be so because it's based on a simple tenet. i can appreciate others' viewpoint that we should be cautious because "simply giving" does nothing to resolve root causes and sometimes comes back to bite you. That is unquestionably true. It's just that for me that's not enough to justify not doing all you can to help those in need now, and that is about more than money. It is about giving something of our selves in practical help and succour.

 

[KZNSeagull]

right. so those numbers are from different sources but you are going to assume they are for the same thing. its ironic because the source you quote is making an analysis of where stats are misrepresented. its also ironic that you emphasise "refugee" when you have numbers for asylum seekers, they are not excatly like for like (you can be the former without claiming asylum any where - like most the millions in Turkey.

the other point is that Germany has gone from accepting 30K asylum seekers a year to 200k. its very honorable that they want to do this, but its rather unfair to expect everyone else to follow suit, and then criticise them. they have taken unilateral action, and its being noted the Syrian refugees are migrating to Germany because of this policy, not applying to UK or other countries. the question is, has Germany's stance encouraged them to make that journey on from the neighbouring countries?

Refugees are asylum seekers are they not? If they are not claiming asylum, then they are migrants not refugees - this is where the confusion lies as the press refer to them as both. The figure for the UK was the only one I could find, presumably because there are not many Syrian refugees currently in the UK (refugees, not migrants). I repeat, I posted those stats in response to the statement that Turkey needs to take it's fair share of refugees - my comment "apparently, that is not taking their fair share" was referring to that. Interestingly, many have assumed I was referring to the UK.

Re has the German stance encouraged them to move from neighbouring countries - yes, I would think that it has. In the Sky News report from Budapest yesterday, the only family (father, grandfather and son) they interviewed were going to Germany because his wife was already there, so there will be an element of that in it too.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

That is far too simplistic, and the idea that we are to blame for children dying is a disgrace. The family involved in that dreadful tragedy was in living in safety in Turkey, and decided that Europe would offer them a better chance of a decent standard of living -fair enough from their point of view - and so took their chance on some old tub. Yes, the sight of the dead child was heart-rending, but that does not mean that folk in this country lack fundamental compassion. Indeed we brits always rally to the flag when tragedies occur, such as the earthquake in Nepal and the amount of foreign aid we give is always a source of contention. But the more realistic among us know that simply to take in migrants this year -and I suspect that is what we will do - will simply encourage even more and I am sure that even compassionate you will realise that this cannot go on.

The family involved weren't trying to live in Europe. If you had read just one article, before judging them, you would have known that the eldest daughter is already in Vancouver.
She had offered to sponsor them to go to Canada, but it had been turned down in Turkey.
Now her mother, & two younger brothers are dead.
Try to think of these people as humans with very human stories rather than just numbers. You may find compassion in your heart.

 

[beorhthelm]

Refugees are asylum seekers are they not? If they are not claiming asylum, then they are migrants not refugees

its the other way round. you can be a refugee and not claim asylum anywhere (which is actually the normal state those people find themselves in). migrants are simply people who move, for a better life what ever the baseline. some one moving from say UK to South Africa or vice versa are migrants, they arent asylum seekers (normally, exceptions in the past). yes, the press does mix the terms up and use them interchangably, and often incorrectly.

your stats on their own lacked context, though if you're making a point about Turkey then they are certainly do what they can. what we should be doing is assisting them more.

 

[BigGully]

So are you saying if you can't help everyone, you help no one?

No I am highliting your total hypocrisy.

Europe have the means to scoop up as many poor Africans as our Europeans air-forces would wish to do so and deliver them to Europe.

Why wouldn't you want this to happen, too ??

My point is that the current wave of migrants is unsustainable, unstabilising and dangerous and just because a 'priviliged' few hundred thousand have made it so far at what point do you and those that seem to have no comprehension of consequence shut the door ??

At what point does your humanitarian threshold break, there are many more worthy of our help beyond the current migrants, 1 million, 2 million, 5 million, 10 million 50 million ??

It seems that your own application process involves crossing a seas, crossing razor wire, crossing borders and smuggling on transport and then you will be accepted, it makes no sense.

 

[severnside gull]

We

This board is not representative of the electorate.

Thank feck for that!


Edit: sorry. It was that or "no shit Sherlock"

 

[Bold Seagull]

No I am highliting your total hypocrisy.

Europe have the means to scoop up as many poor Africans as our Europeans air-forces would wish to do so and deliver them to Europe.

Why wouldn't you want this to happen, too ??

My point is that the current wave of migrants is unsustainable, unstabilising and dangerous and just because a 'priviliged' few hundred thousand have made it so far at what point do you and those that seem to have no comprehension of consequence shut the door ??

At what point does your humanitarian threshold break, there are many more worthy of our help beyond the current migrants, 1 million, 2 million, 5 million, 10 million 50 million ??

It seems that your own application process involves crossing a seas, crossing razor wire, crossing borders and smuggling on transport and then you will be accepted, it makes no sense.

My total hypocrisy? What have I said that is hypocritical!? Are you confusing me with the person you actually originally replied to?

There are starting to be some very odd posts on this thread.

 

[BigGully]

There are practical ways to help those in the World experiencing famine, disease and poverty in their own country and I do support this personally as well as supporting the UK's foreign aid programme - unlike many who as well as taking an anti-immigration stance also oppose almost any level of foreign aid.

As for those in war zones all we can do in practical terms is to try and assist however we can those who manage to escape and at the same time support diplomatic means to end the conflict - I do not support direct intervention as history has shown that apart from the odd exception this seems to make matters worse.

Many of those that are managing to escape from the conflict in Syria do come from the professional classes, did have the money to enable their escape and yes you are right, there are millions who do not have the means, financially or practically to escape - does that mean we shouldn't help those that do?

That's nonsensical, why arent you asking NATO forces to airlift the many millions experiencing conflict throughout the world and delivering them to RAF Brize Norton to access the same safe haven that you seem to want to offer to the current infux of migrants.

You seem unable to comprehend consequences, you are inconsistent in your support of actions and the people being effected.

 

[BigGully]

My total hypocrisy? What have I said that is hypocritical!? Are you confusing me with the person you actually originally replied to?

There are starting to be some very odd posts on this thread.

Not sure if you are being sarcastic, or as you say the post and replys are out of sync !!

 

[Creaky]

No I am highliting your total hypocrisy.

Europe have the means to scoop up as many poor Africans as our Europeans air-forces would wish to do so and deliver them to Europe.

Why wouldn't you want this to happen, too ??

My point is that the current wave of migrants is unsustainable, unstabilising and dangerous and just because a 'priviliged' few hundred thousand have made it so far at what point do you and those that seem to have no comprehension of consequence shut the door ??

At what point does your humanitarian threshold break, there are many more worthy of our help beyond the current migrants, 1 million, 2 million, 5 million, 10 million 50 million ??

It seems that your own application process involves crossing a seas, crossing razor wire, crossing borders and smuggling on transport and then you will be accepted, it makes no sense.

The idea of 'scooping' up poor Africans to bring them to the UK is not the best solution - far better for that same air force to deliver aid, practical and financial to the areas in which the poor are living.

If however you are suggesting that our air force could be used to help those directly fleeing from danger then yes, that is a good use for such resources - far better than using them to drop bombs.

Yes those few that have escaped are in the main 'privileged' - most had the financial means and resources to escape from the threat to their lives and there are many more who cannot escape. You ask indirectly at what point we 'shut the door' but the door is already shut and many seem to want to put their hands over their ears and pretend they can't hear the knocking of the desperate.

Let me turn the question around - what would you do about those in Syria who are in immediate risk of harm? - just leave them to their own resources so that we can maintain our current standard of living? - far better that we can afford to buy an iPad or a season ticket than save the life of some poor wretch!

 

[Pork Knuckle Pete]

No I am highliting your total hypocrisy.

Europe have the means to scoop up as many poor Africans as our Europeans air-forces would wish to do so and deliver them to Europe.

Why wouldn't you want this to happen, too ??

My point is that the current wave of migrants is unsustainable, unstabilising and dangerous and just because a 'priviliged' few hundred thousand have made it so far at what point do you and those that seem to have no comprehension of consequence shut the door ??

At what point does your humanitarian threshold break, there are many more worthy of our help beyond the current migrants, 1 million, 2 million, 5 million, 10 million 50 million ??

It seems that your own application process involves crossing a seas, crossing razor wire, crossing borders and smuggling on transport and then you will be accepted, it makes no sense.

Yeah, you're right. Let's sit back and do **** all.

 

[Hastings gull]

Joins in 2013 and two years later starts trying to decide who can and can't post!

Your post was not clear. Are you referring to me? If that is the case, then yet again you have the wrong end of the stick in your rush to make the usual smart-alec statements. I made it quite clear that All have the right to post here, as I have said to you in the past and earlier today to the expert in Africa.

 

[pastafarian]

The family involved weren't trying to live in Europe. If you had read just one article, before judging them, you would have known that the eldest daughter is already in Vancouver.
She had offered to sponsor them to go to Canada, but it had been turned down in Turkey.
Now her mother, & two younger brothers are dead.
Try to think of these people as humans with very human stories rather than just numbers. You may find compassion in your heart.

Before you lambast one poster for not getting his "fact" correct have a look at your own "fact". The refugee sponsorship was not turned down in Turkey but was turned down by the Canadian Authorities in Canada themselves. The family had two strikes against them, a refusal by the UN to grant them refugee status and a refusal by the Turks to grant an exit visa because they had no passports and were not registered refugees.

The murky vile world of traffickers now plays its part.

The whole thing is a horrible story and a cock awful mess and by that I mean everyone involved from rich arab states not letting any in,to the UN and Europe in fighting how to handle their influx.

Not sure accusing someone of having no compassion and trying to take some moral high ground is the correct way forward though.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Before you lambast one poster for not getting his "fact" correct have a look at your own "fact". The refugee sponsorship was not turned down in Turkey but was turned down by the Canadian Authorities in Canada themselves. The family had two strikes against them, a refusal by the UN to grant them refugee status and a refusal by the Turks to grant an exit visa because they had no passports and were not registered refugees.

The murky vile world of traffickers now plays its part.

The whole thing is a horrible story and a cock awful mess and by that I mean everyone involved from rich arab states not letting any in,to the UN and Europe in fighting how to handle their influx.

Not sure accusing someone of having no compassion and trying to take some moral high ground is the correct way forward though.

I said turned down in Turkey but didn't elaborate on which bit was turned down. I'm sorry that you thought I was trying to take some moral high ground. That wasn't my intention. I didn't accuse the poster of not getting facts straight. I was trying to put a human story to the many numbers of people which are easier to dismiss.

 

[Hastings gull]

The family involved weren't trying to live in Europe. If you had read just one article, before judging them, you would have known that the eldest daughter is already in Vancouver.
She had offered to sponsor them to go to Canada, but it had been turned down in Turkey.
Now her mother, & two younger brothers are dead.
Try to think of these people as humans with very human stories rather than just numbers. You may find compassion in your heart.

Ok I had not read that about Vancouver, but I am not sure that this changes matters a great deal. They were turned down in Turkey and so decided to leave and take their chance, as I pointed out. Then as ever comes the usual simplistic hypocrisy - because one describes the risk that they chose to take, one lacks compassion. You of course have so much more than others because you write and say such nice things. I have had two compassionate people on here this morning - one told me to go away and the other said I had a closed mind because I disagreed. But I suppose it is only human nature to want to make oneself look better.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Not sure if you are being sarcastic, or as you say the post and replys are out of sync !!

No, I genuinely don't know why you've said I've been hypocritical? I didn't actually state any opinion, or offer any solution, I just asked you a question.

 

[pastafarian]

I'm sorry that you thought I was trying to take some moral high ground. That wasn't my intention..

fair enough

 

[BigGully]

Yeah, you're right. Let's sit back and do **** all.

You have no comprehension of consequence, its just one of your blindspots and no I am not saying do nothing

Why dont you offer a figure that you would allow in, you have very little depth to your argument beyond you supporting them, whoever they are.

You do not seem to grasp any consequence to any recipient country, its almost as if you dont wish to visit the elephant in the room.

There are millions upon millions throughout the world with a story to tell and why the should qualify for residence in Europe, projected 9 million Syrians alone, it needs greater thought than just pointing at people and saying 'Lets sit back and do **** all.

Until you are able to articulate your threshold for numbers in Europe or the UK its difficult gauge whether you have a good point or not.