Two weeks to go - how are you voting in the EU referendum? - Leave or Remain?

[drew]

No, you are deliberately misunderstanding the difference between gross and net to score a political point.


We owe then £350m gross. That is mandatory.

They pay us £100m back. That is discretionary.

I want to vote against that discretion. So performing a simple subtraction is MISSING THE POINT.

The rebate/discount is not discretionary. Also, the discount is not paid back because we don't pay it in the first place. On QT one Brexit was arguing that we have no control over how we spent the discount but she was corrected by Farage. I've heard some odd comparisons, the usual being that when you tell someone your salary you tell them the gross figure. Well the difference is that all the deductions are things you are due to pay, your tax, your national insurance, your pension. When you give your salary, you don't include employers national insurance contributions or any pension contributions made by your company.

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

 

[dingodan]

I think the key point is that the & £350m a week figure is a fabrication by the Leave campaign.

Like saying you earn 30K a year is a lie, because you pay tax and bills. No it's not a "fabrication", if you want to talk about fabrication and lies I think people are more likely to consider the remain campaign dishonest than they are the leave campaign. I personally am always wary of people who make accusations of lying and question the motivations of others. The EU controls 350M per week of UK taxpayer money. Don't like the figure? No, neither do I.

The fact that we get some back with strings attached doesn't make it any less, or any better..

 

[yxee]

The rebate/discount is not discretionary. Also, the discount is not paid back because we don't pay it in the first place. On QT one Brexit was arguing that we have no control over how we spent the discount but she was corrected by Farage. I've heard some odd comparisons, the usual being that when you tell someone your salary you tell them the gross figure. Well the difference is that all the deductions are things you are due to pay, your tax, your national insurance, your pension. When you give your salary, you don't include employers national insurance contributions or any pension contributions made by your company.

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

Really? The rebate is not discretionary?

So which EU law is it mentioned in?

The rebate must be unanimously agreed upon by all members every 7 years. Who have DISCRETION.

 

[dingodan]

Why Vote Leave's £350m weekly EU cost claim is wrong

http://gu.com/p/4j6mc?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

It's like saying, here is why Bob's claim that he earns 30K a year is wrong, because he pays tax and has bills.

Everyone who has ever stated their net pay as what they earn is wrong? or worse, lying? No. Like someone else said, you are playing semantics and trying to question the character of the leave campaign. Do your worst, I think the public are seeing through it myself.

 

[drew]

Really? The rebate is not discretionary?

So which EU law is it mentioned in?

The rebate must be unanimously agreed upon by all members every 7 years. Who have DISCRETION.

The rebate is part of the Multiannual Financial Framework which has to be agreed on unanimously and we have the right of veto to that. So it is in our hands. So yes, I agree that it could be seen as discretionary but the discretion is in our hands!

 

[dingodan]

The rebate is part of the Multiannual Financial Framework which has to be agreed on unanimously and we have the right of veto to that. So it is in our hands. So yes, I agree that it could be seen as discretionary but the discretion is in our hands!

lol. If we veto the rebate, what happens? We don't get it. Can we "veto" the strings attached to the rebate and just get our own taxpayers money back to spend as we see fit? No.

If I can tell you how you must spend 100 a week of your income, whose money is it really? Yours or mine? It's true that a) you don't give it to me, and b) it gets spent on you, but really I think you would have every right to claim that I am controlling your money and you would have every right to say that you want it back.

 

[drew]

It's like saying, here is why Bob's claim that he earns 30K a year is wrong, because he pays tax and has bills.

Everyone who has ever stated their net pay as what they earn is wrong? or worse, lying? No. Like someone else said, you are playing semantics and trying to question the character of the leave campaign. Do your worst, I think the public are seeing through it myself.

Let's put it another way. You see an item with a price and a 50% discount sticker. You don't go to the till and pay the full price and then they give you 50% back!

As for the salary analogy, see my post 242.

The leave campaign should have stuck with the net figure and retained credibility but they chose not to as the £350m was more headline grabbing.

 

[dingodan]

Let's put it another way. You see an item with a price and a 50% discount sticker. You don't go to the till and pay the full price and then they give you 50% back!

As for the salary analogy, see my post 242.

The leave campaign should have stuck with the net figure and retained credibility but they chose not to as the £350m was more headline grabbing.

No they don't give me 50% back, they give me 50% credit to spend on selected items in store.

Big difference.

 

[LlcoolJ]

Are we going to have a poll of polls?

 

[drew]

lol. If we veto the rebate, what happens? We don't get it. Can we "veto" the strings attached to the rebate and just get our own taxpayers money back to spend as we see fit? No.

If I can tell you how you must spend 100 a week of your income, whose money is it really? Yours or mine? It's true that a) you don't give it to me, and b) it gets spent on you, but really I think you would have every right to claim that I am controlling your money and you would have every right to say that you want it back.

What are you on about? The rebate is agreed every 7 years as part of the MFF. If the other nations recommend it be removed as part of a new MFF then we veto the whole financial plan which would leave the EU with no money to distribute.

What are you referring to about the 100 per week, it doesn't make sense? The EU do not control what we do with the rebate/discount, even Farage confirmed that on QT. If you are referring to the money that comes back in subsidies then obviously the EU control what is done with because the subsidies are for certain things, R & D, CAP etc. To not spend the money on what you got the subsidy for is surely fraud?

 

[Murray 17]

... if you want to talk about fabrication and lies I think people are more likely to consider the remain campaign dishonest than they are the leave campaign.

Yes.

I think there are big differences between opinion, exaggeration and down right lies. Cameron thinks 'we' will be better off in the EU, he has exaggerated and quoted absolute worst case scenarios for all manner of things, and then says we can control immigration (when he knows we can't).

 

[drew]

No they don't give me 50% back, they give me 50% credit to spend on selected items in store.

Big difference.

What utter garbage. If something has a marked price of £10 and a sticker saying 50% off marked price, you will pay £5. You don't get a credit to spend elsewhere in the store, you have £5 which you can spend where you like or save.

Exactly what strings are attached to the rebate? Can you provide a credible link?

 

[drew]

Yes.

I think there are big differences between opinion, exaggeration and down right lies. Cameron thinks 'we' will be better off in the EU, he has exaggerated and quoted absolute worst case scenarios for all manner of things, and then says we can control immigration (when he knows we can't).

 

[dingodan]

What utter garbage. If something has a marked price of £10 and a sticker saying 50% off marked price, you will pay £5. You don't get a credit to spend elsewhere in the store, you have £5 which you can spend where you like or save.

Exactly what strings are attached to the rebate? Can you provide a credible link?

You are correct, the rebate is a discount, "money off" the "full price". & technically the EU does not say "You must spend your rebate on XYZ". But, after recieving our "generous" discount - we, seperately, also get instructions (requirements) on how to spend an equivilant sum of money, and if we don't spend that money how we are told we will be fined.

They "give" with one hand, and take with the other.

The total controlled by the EU is 350M a week (see table 9.9 of the ONS Pink Book 2014). Just because it isn't all "sent" to the EU does not mean they don't control it. Focusing on what is actually "sent" is playing semantics.

 

[Murray 17]

Don't you agree then drew? LOL

 

[Murray 17]

On a serious note though, most people on this board have strong opinions one way or the other. No amount of quotes/facts and figures are going to change their views.

 

[Horton's halftime iceberg]

I think half the people that like him share many of the opinions of the character and the other half like the way he is satirising/ridiculing some of those views. I like the act although thought he made a mistake standing against Farage. As with Izzard last night ... comedians should stick to what they do best.

Politics effects everyone, I do not know why anyone should be excluded, as long as they are committed to being fair, open and non violent or overtly offensive.

Al Murray is a historian first and a comedian second, should he only do the comedy because thats what people think he's best at.

Still I highly recommend both Eddie Izzard and Al Murray live, they are both fantastic.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

On a serious note though, most people on this board have strong opinions one way or the other. No amount of quotes/facts and figures are going to change their views.

I would consider being a remainer if EU citizens could bring their spouses to this country if they earned say £35000 per year upwards,the current £18600 is far too low....it for me is all about freedom of movement of people and immigration..

 

[Horton's halftime iceberg]

I would consider being a remainer if EU citizens could bring their spouses to this country if they earned say £35000 per year upwards,the current £18600 is far too low....it for me is all about freedom of movement of people and immigration..

And one rule for the rich and better/ well paid, another for the poor and low paid!

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

Are we going to have a poll of polls?

I would love to see a -are you LEAVE or REMAIN coupled with DRUM or NO DRUM at the AMEX