Jeez....seems Portslade had a damn lucky escape, after all.
Yeah I'd never fit into British society anyway... I have teeth and I dont fight in pubs.
Trump
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Yeah I'd never fit into British society anyway... I have teeth and I dont fight in pubs.
One day, you'll look back on all this nonsense and think "
Good grief, I can't believe I was so odd."At least, I hope you will.
Machiavelli
Well-known member
Great post.
Conspiracy thinking is for the idle. It comforts.
Far more difficult, time-consuming and dependent upon multiple, sequential decisions is to work out an alternative, and to mobilise enough people behind that alternative such that it begins to have an impact.
Stato
Well-known member
- Dec 21, 2011
- 7,367
Also fiction. I recognised bits of the end of 1984 in there so looked it up. Orwell didn't say that in an interview. It was fictionalised in a BBC documentary. The words are a mixture of interview quotes and the conclusion of 1984 and were spoken by an actor playing Orwell. https://www.openculture.com/2014/11/george-orwells-final-warning.html
I didn't say that it didn't. I said that he didn't to the levels that it does today. Global communication and the resulting increase in the speed at which money can be moved has strengthened the grip enormously.
I have a lifelong friend who is as convinced as you are that he has the secret. He is equally as convinced that anyone who disagrees with him, just hasn't been paying attention. I'd suggest, as I've suggested frequently to him, that it's a huge and fairly insulting assumption to make that people who don't agree with your conclusions, know less than you do. I can't claim to know everything that has happened in global politics during my lifetime, but I know a lot more about that than I do about Masterchef and I've never played WoW. I also never bothered watching 'The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air' for any longer than it took for the excellent title sequence to end and the Hannah Montana level sitcom to begin.
However, I wouldn't denigrate art and entertainment. As I said on the Oscars thread, art and culture of any kind generally have an enormous value to the individual moved by it and though it may seem silly, I would say that my life has probably been given more truly meaningful moments by say a Pixies song, or Robbie Reinelt's scrappy goal at Hereford in 1997 than it has by a hundred of the political and economic books/discussions that I have read, watched, listened to, or taken part in. Despite how much me and my friend drive each other mad with rage when drunkenly discussing geopolitical motivations, we have also shared moments of great joy provided by art, seeing The Pixies together when we were teenagers for instance.
The things I've witnessed and experienced having worked in large corporate organisations for decades always mean that my worldview is going to look first for cock up rather than conspiracy. As such I couldn't disgree with you more on this topic. However, as with my friend and as Billy Bragg sang (but didn't say in an interview. There is difference): "If you stick around, I'm sure that we can find some common ground."
Yeah it can be rough to be insulted for having your beliefs called out as shallow and based on not digging deep enough. We conspiracy theorists get insulted for our beliefs on a daily basis, so I know it can be rough... until you get used to it. It is not a lot different from discussions in mainstream politics: using the US as an example, democrats and republicans will mock each others perpectives and it seems to be similar in England among those who vote for the dominant parties.
As for art and entertainment it is a bit like everything else, you can do it, underdo it or overdo it. I also think there is a massive difference between different sorts of culture - movies and tv-series is dangerous stuff as it doesnt only affect your emotional state but the whole belief system. It can be used wisely but it is a tool for brainwashing. Music on the other hand... most likely existed before we even had languages, it plays on a different more harmless set of strings in our brains. I wouldnt trust someone who doesnt listen to any music... I'd assume they were complete psychopaths and walk in the other direction, throwing frequent glances oveer my shoulder.
We probably have common grounds on a lot of subjects, however I dont think we'll get very close when it comes to how we believe the world is configured. While cockups happen, I'm not a huge believer in coincidence and I dont see any reason to change that view as long as the most impactful coincidences always result in the expansion of power for the conspiring cabal.
I am genuinely interested in your opinion, so I will ask again. If you consider the USA suboptimal I assume that you have an optimal standard that you are comparing it to? I was wondering where and what that is.
Also, the electoral college is designed to give proportionate representation to all states of the union, including small states with farmers. I could think of nothing worse than having half a dozen major cities on the east and west coasts decide a general election.
And registering to vote is just as easy for a black liberal as it is for a white conservative, to suggest otherwise is false. But well done for managing to work in your little racist dig…
Seagull58
In the Algarve
One person one vote across the nation would have given the US Gore in 2000 and Clinton in 2016, both infinitely better than the Electoral College carve up that produced Bush (only after the Supreme Court decided on the hanging chads) and Trump who is a totally corrupt wannabee dictator who will try again to overthrow the government with the support of the GQP if he is not in jail by 2024.
I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree on candidates, I can’t think of any other political families more corrupt than the Clintons and the Bidens.
Thanks for your reply. It is a tricky question. For me there are two answers. The first is what may be possible in the real world. The second is what I'd like to see tested (beta tested first) in an ideal world.
The first....I like FPTP. I'd prefer (in the UK) more seats (1000), and I'd like a reform of the laws around campaigning and advertising. For example, arguably Boris rode home on the "£350 million a week for the NHS if we leave the EU", saddled up and claimed ownership of all the winnings. I know it wasn't his campaign, but the sewage free-for-all in electioneering by other means is corroding society. I suspect, however, it always has. Oh, and lower the voting age to 16. If you can legally reproduce the species at 16 you should have a vote. I'd like to see some laws to curb the nonsense that goes on in parliament, too. People are getting away with telling too many lies, not answering questions, and generally being dicks. This, sadly, has also gone on forever.
In the middle of the possible and the fanciful, I'd like to see some changes to the laws around candidates. It seems to me that getting on the slate requires only that ,like David Bellotti and Tim Hodges, you are an inveterate politician, with the opportunist gifts of chutzpa, cunning and a conscience-free ability to lie at the drop of a hat. All the successful ones, Blair, Thatcher, Churchill, Clinton and Trump have the gene for that. There must be some way of filtering these people out of the mix. And I say that as a 'Blairite'. I know I was fooled and I chose to tolerate it for what I felt what was the greater good. It's what we, who are awake, all do. Because we have no choice.
The second answer, same number of seats, FPTP, but you have to pass a test to be allowed a vote. Basic maths and literacy, and some of the other sort of stuff that foreigners have to show capability to get UK citizenship. I would not exclude people in jail because that reinforces a sense of lack of hope, although I would suspend voting rights for the first half of a custodial sentence. I'd keep the upper chamber but change its role - in organizations I have involvement with we have an executive with a chair, but we also have trustees who ensure that rules are not broken by a corrupt executive. And yet.....I would like a swifter nimbler executive. So the devil is in the detail.
Apologies if I called you a racist. I presume you were narked because you aren't. That's good enough for me.
The art of the possible, though...we all make compromises as voters....and as we grow older and closer to death, in general, we become increasingly phlegmatic (even the grumpy buggers).
That statement illustrates your political ineptitude.
Insel affe
HellBilly
Not really, I think he has a valid point.
Seagull58
In the Algarve
The Trumps!!!!!!
Thanks for your reply. It is a tricky question. For me there are two answers. The first is what may be possible in the real world. The second is what I'd like to see tested (beta tested first) in an ideal world.
The first....I like FPTP. I'd prefer (in the UK) more seats (1000), and I'd like a reform of the laws around campaigning and advertising. For example, arguably Boris rode home on the "£350 million a week for the NHS if we leave the EU", saddled up and claimed ownership of all the winnings. I know it wasn't his campaign, but the sewage free-for-all in electioneering by other means is corroding society. I suspect, however, it always has. Oh, and lower the voting age to 16. If you can legally reproduce the species at 16 you should have a vote. I'd like to see some laws to curb the nonsense that goes on in parliament, too. People are getting away with telling too many lies, not answering questions, and generally being dicks. This, sadly, has also gone on forever.
In the middle of the possible and the fanciful, I'd like to see some changes to the laws around candidates. It seems to me that getting on the slate requires only that ,like David Bellotti and Tim Someone, you are an inveterate politician, with the opportunist gifts of chutzpa, cunning and a conscience-free ability to lie at the drop of a hat. All the successful ones, Blair, Thatcher, Churchill, Clinton and Trump have the gene for that. There must be some way of filtering these people out of the mix. And I say that as a 'Blairite'. I know I was fooled and I chose to tolerate it for what I felt what was the greater good. It's what we, who are awake, all do. Because we have no choice.
The second answer, same number of seats, FPTP, but you have to pass a test to be allowed a vote. Basic maths and literacy, and some of the other sort of stuff that foreigners have to show capability to get UK citizenship. I would not exclude people in jail because that reinforces a sense of lack of hope, although I would suspend voting rights for the first half of a custodial sentence. I'd keep the upper chamber but change its role - in organizations I have involvement with we have an executive with a chair, but we also have trustees who ensure that rules are not broken by a corrupt executive. And yet.....I would like a swifter nimbler executive. So the devil is in the detail.
Apologies if I called you a racist. I presume you were narked because you aren't. That's good enough for me.
The art of the possible, though...we all make compromises as voters....and as we grow older and closer to death, in general, we become increasingly phlegmatic (even the grumpy buggers).
And thank you for your reply, and in such depth and detail! It would take me all day to type that so I’ll keep it shorter.
What really triggered my initial response was the propensity of a large percentage of posters to take a sh*t on the USA at every given opportunity, even to take delight in it. Why is that? There are about 190 other countries in the world more worthy of criticism. I’ve lived here for 39 years now and despite its many flaws, and there are many, I still believe it is the one place on earth that offers the best opportunity for “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness”. Even a simpleton such as myself has the ability to carve out a good life for me and my family, much more than I felt I did in early 1980’s England when I made my decision to leave. Millions of others who try to cross the southern border every year probably believe the same.
You do bring up some interesting points though. Dropping the voting age to 16 would be an utter nightmare. I would endorse increasing it to say…maybe, about 35…time enough for young adults to live in the real world for a while and recover from their brainwashing by liberal professors.
I do agree with you on campaign finance reform, the billions of dollars it takes to win an election is obscene. I don’t know what the solution is though. I also believe in term limits, politicians become so entrenched it is almost impossible to vote them out, mainly due to their major financing by the corporations, etc. that they are beholden to. They’re no longer interested in what’s best for the country, but what’s best for themselves. And if I come across as sarcastic, it’s because I am, it’s the Englishman in me. No offense intended. It’s a real problem I get into sometimes because Americans have a completely different sense of “humor”. Thank you for the apology, I am not a racist even if I did vote for Trump, and besides, he was obviously a much better candidate than the current disaster in charge.
I think I went a little long, my index finger is cramping up…
No, not even close.
And thank you for your reply, and in such depth and detail! It would take me all day to type that so I’ll keep it shorter.
What really triggered my initial response was the propensity of a large percentage of posters to take a sh*t on the USA at every given opportunity, even to take delight in it. Why is that? There are about 190 other countries in the world more worthy of criticism. I’ve lived here for 39 years now and despite its many flaws, and there are many, I still believe it is the one place on earth that offers the best opportunity for “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness”. Even a simpleton such as myself has the ability to carve out a good life for me and my family, much more than I felt I did in early 1980’s England when I made my decision to leave. Millions of others who try to cross the southern border every year probably believe the same.
You do bring up some interesting points though. Dropping the voting age to 16 would be an utter nightmare. I would endorse increasing it to say…maybe, about 35…time enough for young adults to live in the real world for a while and recover from their brainwashing by liberal professors.
And if I come across as sarcastic, it’s because I am, it’s the Englishman in me. No offense intended. It’s a real problem I get into sometimes because Americans have a completely different sense of “humor”. Thank you for the apology, I am not a racist even if I did vote for Trump, and besides, he was obviously a much better candidate than the current disaster in charge.
I think I went a little long, my index finger is cramping up…
Your reply is very much appreciated.
I will whisper it in case anyone here notices, but, yes, America is in my view too, a land of opportunity. Even from a distance (Canada, when I lived there for 4 years) it seemed to me that with talent and drive, a work ethic, and fortitude, anything there was possible. Especially to me, told as I grew up in England, to know my place.
And despite my leftists prejudices, I can see why Trump appealed (I predicted he would win). I had overestimated the virtues of the alternatives. Only when I saw vids of Hillary banging on like a 1960s union leader to one audience while presenting all measured elsewhere did I consider that all may not be so cut and dried. Don't get me wrong, I nevertheless saw Trump as a less guarded and more bonkers version of Johnson. But it is what it is.
What baffles me is how the Democrats became so ruined they put forward the geriatric oaf you have 'in charge' now. He makes Roy of Watford look like Henry Kissinger
.One lives in hope. But as I always say, we elect the leaders we deseve, by whatever system. Flawed though they may be, yours and our systems, at least they are better than the systems on offer for the poor buggers in Russia. The Chinese, however, I suspect know exacly what they have and what they want. The russians, now, after 100 years or more of shithousery, may be beyond salvation.
And, in the long run, we are all dead. So live well. All the best to you and yours
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Your reply is very much appreciated.
I will whisper it in case anyone here notices, but, yes, America is in my view too, a land of opportunity. Even from a distance (Canada, when I lived there for 4 years) it seemed to me that with talent and drive, a work ethic, and fortitude, anything there was possible. Especially to me, told as I grew up in England, to know my place.
And despite my leftists prejudices, I can see why Trump appealed (I predicted he would win). I had overestimated the virtues of the alternatives. Only when I saw vids of Hillary banging on like a 1960s union leader to one audience while presenting all measured elsewhere did I consider that all may not be so cut and dried. Don't get me wrong, I nevertheless saw Trump as a less guarded and more bonkers version of Johnson. But it is what it is.
What baffles me is how the Democrats became so ruined they put forward the geriatric oaf you have 'in charge' now. He makes Roy of Watford look like Henry Kissinger
One lives in hope. But as I always say, we elect the leaders we deseve, by whatever system. Flawed though they may be, yours and our systems, at least they are better than the systems on offer for the poor buggers in Russia. The Chinese, however, I suspect know exacly what they have and what they want. The russians, now, after 100 years or more of shithousery, may be beyond salvation.
And, in the long run, we are all dead. So live well. All the best to you and yours
I agree that Trump is sometime bonkers, but with a choice between Trump and Joe Biden I’ll choose bonkers all day long. As you say, even the best systems of government are only as good as the people running it.
And speaking of the USA and oligarchy…
https://www.foxnews.com/media/bongino-us-oligarchy-haves-not-biden-administration
Yes, I peruse the Bongino Report. You may not agree with any of it, which is fine. An interesting read nonetheless…
https://bonginoreport.com/
https://www.foxnews.com/media/bongino-us-oligarchy-haves-not-biden-administration
Yes, I peruse the Bongino Report. You may not agree with any of it, which is fine. An interesting read nonetheless…
https://bonginoreport.com/
Weird. You're suggesting we take seriously someone who questions a global pandemic, face masks, and the result of the 2020 election amongst other things. Next you'll be posting links to Alex Jones and his conspiracy theories.
Like I said, you don’t have to agree with any of it. It is a subject that came up in earlier posts. And face masks are useless, ask anyone who used them and got Covid.
McTavish
Well-known member
- Nov 5, 2014
- 1,587
Or ask the people who didn't get Covid from the people wearing them?