[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...

[vegster]

Indeed. I wonder if they might tempt Farage into trying to come on board...

Farage has to be an elected MP to become leader according to Tory party rules. So, he'd have to stand, get elected ( something he has never achieved despite standing in 7 by elections ) and then win a Tory Leadership contest. Would he settle for being a mid ranking Minister in opposition ? I doubt it, no money for him in that.

 

[Zeus]

The Tories may very well struggle to ever win an election again after this period. I just don’t see how the grown ups ever get control of the party from here. However the issue is that there are plenty of career politicians that will be replacing them in Labours ranks that don’t really have principles and happy to flip flop wherever their bread is buttered. The system is fundamentally broken to pieces.

I have just spent 18 months working very closely with government departments and the reality of how this country is run is terrifying. SPADS with very little experience other than a PR gig they once had are pulling all the strings and long termism is fantasy. It’s exactly the same on the Labour side of the coin.

 

[vegster]

Farage is definitely the most popular politician to have lost on all five of his bids to become an MP.

7 ! I thought it was 5-6 but got corrected on Twitter, its 7 failures...he only got elected as a MEP due to the EU 's Proportional Representation system.. then he failed to turn up for the Fisheries Committee he was elected to some 27 times while trousering every expense and allowance he could. In fact he overcharged and had to pay back several thousand pounds.. That's your " Man of the People" Nige.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Farage is definitely the most popular politician to have lost on all five of his bids to become an MP.

But to be fair, he was only beaten into third pace by a man dressed in a dolphin suit the once

Besides there's no way the British Electorate would be naive enough to fall for his bullshi ................ Oh

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

7 ! I thought it was 5-6 but got corrected on Twitter, its 7 failures...he only got elected as a MEP due to the EU 's Proportional Representation system.. then he failed to turn up for the Fisheries Committee he was elected to some 27 times while trousering every expense and allowance he could. In fact he overcharged and had to pay back several thousand pounds.. That's your " Man of the People" Nige.

Well, a certain type of person......

 

[Papa Lazarou]

To make it a proper tory slogan it should be:

NO SOUTH AFRICAN'S

NO BLACK SOUTH AFRICAN'S

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

But to be fair, he was only beaten into third pace by a man dressed in a dolphin suit the once

Besides there's no way the British Electorate would be naive enough to fall for his bullshi ................ Oh

Switch to PR and he'll be there, in parliament, smirking.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The Tories may very well struggle to ever win an election again after this period. I just don’t see how the grown ups ever get control of the party from here. However the issue is that there are plenty of career politicians that will be replacing them in Labours ranks that don’t really have principles and happy to flip flop wherever their bread is buttered. The system is fundamentally broken to pieces.

I have just spent 18 months working very closely with government departments and the reality of how this country is run is terrifying. SPADS with very little experience other than a PR gig they once had are pulling all the strings and long termism is fantasy. It’s exactly the same on the Labour side of the coin.

I don't doubt your insight but if you are working closely with government departments, how do you know that it is exactly the same on the labour side of the coin? They haven't been the government for 13 years.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Is Farage still that popular though? I mean sure, with a small headbanger fringe he is, but in general? It feels like he's nowhere near his 2014-2017 peak, and hitching himself so closely to Trump won't have helped him.

I wonder how much of his notoriety now is people saying "he's really popular" rather than him actually being popular.

Maybe people simply don't understand the difference between popular and populist.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Switch to PR and he'll be there, in parliament, smirking.

If we had PR, he may well be sitting in parliament with a few UKIP'ers, together with Johnson, Braverman, Sunak and co with their ERG party, Corbyn leading his true socialist party and a few other waifs and strays, all smirking away completely powerless.

We also would have had a Government made up of Starmer and some of his front bench, Rory Stewart and some one nation conservatives and a few Libdems. We also would not have suffered the last 5 years of total f***wittery.

Thank god for FPTP

 

[Bob!]

If we had PR, he may well be sitting in parliament with a few UKIP'ers, together with Johnson, Braverman, Sunak and co with their ERG party, Corbyn leading his true socialist party and a few other waifs and strays, all smirking away completely powerless.

We also would have had a Government made up of Starmer and some of his front bench, Rory Stewart and some one nation conservatives and a few Libdems. We also would not have suffered the last 5 years of total f***wittery.

Thank god for FPTP

Johnson would have followed the way the wind was blowing, and become one of those one nation conservatives though.

 

[WATFORD zero]

The Tories may very well struggle to ever win an election again after this period. I just don’t see how the grown ups ever get control of the party from here. However the issue is that there are plenty of career politicians that will be replacing them in Labours ranks that don’t really have principles and happy to flip flop wherever their bread is buttered. The system is fundamentally broken to pieces.

I have just spent 18 months working very closely with government departments and the reality of how this country is run is terrifying. SPADS with very little experience other than a PR gig they once had are pulling all the strings and long termism is fantasy. It’s exactly the same on the Labour side of the coin.

And I can tell you from personal (if somewhat out of date) experience and second hand from people who are still working in that environment and have done for years that prior to this Government that wasn't the case.

From people who worked under a number of different Governments, by far the biggest change in the way Governments operate in this area came with the switch from May to Johnson

And Labour in government are exactly the same ? When in the last 18 months was this

 

[WATFORD zero]

Johnson would have followed the way the wind was blowing, and become one of those one nation conservatives though.

And could you imagine the one nation conservatives electing him leader

Even if the Labour and Conservative parties only split into two parties each, the political landscape would be so very different under PR

 

[Peteinblack]

Switch to PR and he'll be there, in parliament, smirking.

Much as I absolutely loathe the charlatan - the 'cheeky chappy, man of the people' act is sickening (he doesn't really give a shit about ordinary working people except in so far as he can whip-up xenophobia for his own ends) - if Fartage was in the House of Commons, his hypocrisy and BS would be much more clearly visible; people would see what his views and policy preferences were on issues other than asylum seekers and immigration.

A lot of those who currently support him because of his racism might then see him vote for NHS privatisation, or voting to further weaken employment protection and workers' rights, and realise that he is absolutely no friend of ordinary working people. He is way to the Right of Thatcher, and thinks that we need more of her policies x 20.

Fartage gets away with his BS because he portrays himself as an 'outsider' operating in the shadows (supposedly persecuted by the 'liberal elite' or 'deep state'), where he avoids critical scrutiny of his Far Right beliefs. In the House of Commons, more people would see what a complete and utter **** he really is - just as when the former BNP leader Nick Griffin appeared on Question Time, he absolutely imploded and destroyed his political career in 45 minutes.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

If we had PR, he may well be sitting in parliament with a few UKIP'ers, together with Johnson, Braverman, Sunak and co with their ERG party, Corbyn leading his true socialist party and a few other waifs and strays, all smirking away completely powerless.

We also would have had a Government made up of Starmer and some of his front bench, Rory Stewart and some one nation conservatives and a few Libdems. We also would not have suffered the last 5 years of total f***wittery.

Thank god for FPTP

The first part is certainly the case. However, for Starmer and Stewart to have got in 5 years ago would have meant that Corbyn had ceased to be labour leader long before he actually left (4 years ago, after the last general election; Starmer was not leader then). No, we would have a hideous right wing government, and were we to have used PR in 2019 to elect it, it would be a hideous coalition in power now, with Johnson (initially) the PM and Farage in the cabinet. God only knows how f***ed up the Brexit arrangements would be (not that they are exactly favourable now anyway).

Whether the demonstration for 5 years of their level of hideousness might reduce their chance of their winning again this or next year is moot, especially given that Reform would not split the tory vote letting labour win in split seats, since with PR the tories and Reform would get the 'full and fair' value of their vote - what the PR advocates always bang on about.

So, it's a lose-lose situation with PR if you disfavour extremist parties. Same as it ever was.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Under PR, you wouldn't have the two huge coalitions of battling factions held together by the prize of absolute power which currently represent the British electorate's choice of Government.

You would have at least two Conservative parties and Labour parties representing the different wings. So Starmer and Corbyn could both be leaders as could Stewart and Johnson. And, if more people voted for Johnsons ERG and Farage's UKIP (although they are both chasing the same group of voters) than vote for Starmer's centrist labour and Stewart's centrist conservatives (and The Libdems) then your scenario above would happen. But we both know they wouldn't

I have to say H, you do seem a little overly worried by the idea of a few swivel eyed loons getting to be powerless back bench MPs from minor parties as a result of PR.

Especially when you consider we have had Johnson, Truss, Sunak, Kwarteng, Braverman, Patel, Anderson etc in real positions of power (including all the major posts) in the last few years as a result of your beloved FPTP

 

[Zeus]

I don't doubt your insight but if you are working closely with government departments, how do you know that it is exactly the same on the labour side of the coin? They haven't been the government for 13 years.

Because the area I worked in consults with both parties. Particularly as everyone expects Labour to win. The machine works in exactly the same way regardless of party.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Much as I absolutely loathe the charlatan - the 'cheeky chappy, man of the people' act is sickening (he doesn't really give a shit about ordinary working people except in so far as he can whip-up xenophobia for his own ends) - if Fartage was in the House of Commons, his hypocrisy and BS would be much more clearly visible; people would see what his views and policy preferences were on issues other than asylum seekers and immigration.

A lot of those who currently support him because of his racism might then see him vote for NHS privatisation, or voting to further weaken employment protection and workers' rights, and realise that he is absolutely no friend of ordinary working people. He is way to the Right of Thatcher, and thinks that we need more of her policies x 20.

Fartage gets away with his BS because he portrays himself as an 'outsider' operating in the shadows (supposedly persecuted by the 'liberal elite' or 'deep state'), where he avoids critical scrutiny of his Far Right beliefs. In the House of Commons, more people would see what a complete and utter **** he really is - just as when the former BNP leader Nick Griffin appeared on Question Time, he absolutely imploded and destroyed his political career in 45 minutes.

Let me have another go at persuading you.

Sadly having his policies and actions held up to scrutiny would have no more effect on his popularity among his followers than the excruciating exposure of his litany of lies has had any effect on Johnson's popularity among the tory faithful. The latter would be restored as leader tomorrow by the rank and file had they a chance to vote for him, and he was jettisoned only because the tory MPs who had to work with him were tired of being lied to, and could see for themselves how Johnson is too lazy and feckless to be a real leader. Famously Johnson would sit through a meeting and go with whatever was said by the last person to speak. Farage is much smarter and ruthless than that, and does not have the weakness of a relentless and rapacious erection.

Farage's antics in the European parliament did not dent his popularity, either. A popularity too meagre to win enough votes for a seat via FPTP, but plenty to win a seat via PR. And then he would be in his element.

Trumps visible public antics, likewise, seem to have cemented his popularity among his tens of millions of supporters, not diminished it.

The only way to deal with these people is to ensure they can't get their hands on anything that lends them legitimacy. Get them off the ballot (Trump) or use an electoral system that filters out small and poisonous fish like Farage. This doesn't keep the big parties entirely free of scum, but it took extreme laziness (Johnson) and venality (Sunk) to allow the seepage in of the scum that has, for now, changes the tory party's phenotype to what it seems to have become. And even that is fixable. A good thrashing in the election followed by a majority labour government may help them give their heads a wobble.

That has to be preferable to changing the voting system to one that inevitable gets Farage into parliament, then hoping that greater visibility will work against him. With Corbyn and his ilk on the opposition benches (albeit not in coalition with Labour, one would hope - and yet this is what happens is it not - the extremists join the larger party in coalition government) PR will be the gateway to the normalization of extremism in the UK, and to those on the right, Farage will look increasingly acceptable as he comes up against the new tranche left wing extremists, also there because of PR, on the opposite benches

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Because the area I worked in consults with both parties. Particularly as everyone expects Labour to win. The machine works in exactly the same way regardless of party.

Well, I remember dolly Draper, and I have watched The Thick of it so I would imagine that spad element is certainly there.

What makes you think it is the core element of either party, though? All big fish have pilot fish.

Do you think there was ever a time when things were different?

My view is that substance and appearance can be different, and sometimes it can be the same. And presently I'd struggle to conceive that Labour are exactly the same as the Tories.

 

[Zeus]

And Labour in government are exactly the same ? When in the last 18 months was this

They are the same in that they all use SPADS that are ex average PR people more concerned with what (they think) is popular rather than what's right, and it's those SPADs that are pretty much driving policy approach in both parties. You can dispute it as much as you like but it is what it is.