[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...

[WATFORD zero]

They are the same in that they all use SPADS that are ex average PR people more concerned with what (they think) is popular rather than what's right, and it's those SPADs that are pretty much driving policy approach in both parties. You can dispute it as much as you like but it is what it is.

I don't dispute it at all and agree that the SPADS have an awful lot of power in agreeing party policy, probably too much, but it's all about votes and it's been happening for years, Cummings, Alastair Campbell, Bernard Ingham (nearly 50 years)

When you said 'working with Government departments', I thought you were referring to the way a Government runs the country which is primarily down to the way the Government interacts with the Civil service and the biggest change in this relationship (from individuals involved) has been during the change from the May Government to the Johnson one and the amount of influence SPADS have on that relationship.

The Civil Service employ some of the top expertise in the country across a huge number of areas and, prior to the Johnson Government, they would always be involved in understanding, predicting and shaping the impact of policies on the country. It's an area that prior to 2019, wasn't overly affected by SPADS. That all changed in 2019 with the arrival of Johnson and Cummings (I could do the 'Don't need experts' line but that would be a cheapshot)

Although, I'm sure purely coincidentally, it was also the change to the most inexperienced Cabinet in history. And the vast majority of the current Government and the current PM Sunak have only ever experienced working in that very different environment.

That's why I was asking what Labour had done in this area in the last 18 months

 

[A1X]

Government decides to pick a fight with Ukrainian refugees

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

They are the same in that they all use SPADS that are ex average PR people more concerned with what (they think) is popular rather than what's right, and it's those SPADs that are pretty much driving policy approach in both parties. You can dispute it as much as you like but it is what it is.

Market research. Very important

But it is up to the leadership how they decide to respond.

Not sure what cesspit the Tories have been dredging. They have certainly been gleefully responding with full steam ahead (at the helm of the Titanic) gusto.

Not seen any reactionary old shite policy initiatives from labour, however

 

[Wozza]

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

And could you imagine the one nation conservatives electing him leader

Even if the Labour and Conservative parties only split into two parties each, the political landscape would be so very different under PR

Yep.

Even worse.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

PR will be the gateway to the normalization of extremism in the UK,

How many countries has this actually happened in? Apart from the Israel example you've used previously, which is a somewhat flawed comparison for all sorts of pretty obvious reasons.
We could throw in Weimar Germany I suppose. That was always the classic "don't question our brilliant voting system" example in my Soc Ed lessons at school. Although given the differences in history and politics between modern Britain and 30s Germany I don't think that comparison holds up either.

It does feel like a variation of the "women/working class men/middle class men can't be trusted to vote" argument that was trotted out every time anybody tried to extend the franchise.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

How many countries has this actually happened in? Apart from the Israel example you've used previously, which is a somewhat flawed comparison for all sorts of pretty obvious reasons.
We could throw in Weimar Germany I suppose. That was always the classic "don't question our brilliant voting system" example in my Soc Ed lessons at school. Although given the differences in history and politics between modern Britain and 30s Germany I don't think that comparison holds up either.

It does feel like a variation of the "women/working class men/middle class men can't be trusted to vote" argument that was trotted out every time anybody tried to extend the franchise.

Germany in 30s? Luckily without consequence. Oh, hang on....

And here? The Brits have an untapped nutter contingent. Invite them in by all means....

Or...... best not, eh?

 

[Baldseagull]

Germany in 30s? Luckily without consequence. Oh, hang on....

And here? The Brits have an untapped nutter contingent. Invite them in by all means....

Or...... best not, eh?

How about the Alternative Vote system we had a referendum on? Would still allow people to vote for the candidate they most wanted, rather than against the one they most despised, but allow that vote to pass to another if their most preferred candidate was not popular enough with others to be in the race. It seems close to ideal to me.

 

[Greg Bobkin]

BBC News - Cameron government knew Post Office ditched Horizon IT investigation https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68146054

Same party, different wrong'uns.

 

[beorhthelm]

How many countries has this actually happened in? Apart from the Israel example you've used previously, which is a somewhat flawed comparison for all sorts of pretty obvious reasons.
We could throw in Weimar Germany I suppose. That was always the classic "don't question our brilliant voting system" example in my Soc Ed lessons at school. Although given the differences in history and politics between modern Britain and 30s Germany I don't think that comparison holds up either.

It does feel like a variation of the "women/working class men/middle class men can't be trusted to vote" argument that was trotted out every time anybody tried to extend the franchise.

most of them? across europe far left and far right parties are routinely voted into their parliaments. the right have been on a bit of surge lately, in Italy the Brothers of Italy, described as most right wing since the war, are in government. last year election in Netherlands saw a right-wing populist anti-immigration party PVV win the most seats. in Germany you have AFD, sufficently right that recently have been called a threat to democracy. though they do represent the views of many and their elected representatives seen as a virtue of PR, right?

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Germany in 30s? Luckily without consequence. Oh, hang on....

And here? The Brits have an untapped nutter contingent. Invite them in by all means....

Or...... best not, eh?

Is the political, societal or historic context in Britain even vaguely comparable to 30s Germany?
No. It's not. Notwithstanding that the Nazis had to have a coup shortly after the November 1932 election when they had a reduced share of the vote to seize power anyway.
No country's immune to nutcasism, but the idea that given free reign to vote for whomever they like the British will suddenly vote Nazi seems like wild scaremongering.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

most of them? across europe far left and far right parties are routinely voted into their parliaments. the right have been on a bit of surge lately, in Italy the Brothers of Italy, described as most right wing since the war, are in government. last year election in Netherlands saw a right-wing populist anti-immigration party PVV win the most seats. in Germany you have AFD, sufficently right that recently have been called a threat to democracy. though they do represent the views of many and their elected representatives seen as a virtue of PR, right?

As you say, the right have been on a surge generally across many countries.
It is entirely possible that in Italy or Holland the governments would look even more right wing under alternative systems where the winner of an election gets an exaggerated portion of the seats. A similar movement could be pointed to in America or France (where every few years everybody has kittens over whether they'll finally elect a Le Pen). There are reasons for that shift that go well beyond the voting system of any individual country.

 

[TomandJerry]

David Cameron's government knew the Post Office had ditched a secret investigation that might have helped wrongly accused postmasters prove their innocence, the BBC can reveal.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Cameron government knew Post Office ditched Horizon IT investigation​

David Cameron's government knew the Post Office had ditched a secret investigation that might have helped wrongly accused postmasters prove their innocence, the BBC can reveal.

The 2016 investigation trawled 17 years of records to find out how often, and why, cash accounts on the Horizon IT system had been tampered with remotely. Ministers were told an investigation was happening. But after postmasters began legal action, it was suddenly stopped.

The revelations have prompted an accusation that the Post Office may have broken the law - and the government did nothing to prevent it. Paul Marshall, a barrister who represented some sub-postmasters, said: "On the face of it, it discloses a conspiracy by the Post Office to pervert the course of justice."

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-68146054

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Is the political, societal or historic context in Britain even vaguely comparable to 30s Germany?
No. It's not. Notwithstanding that the Nazis had to have a coup shortly after the November 1932 election when they had a reduced share of the vote to seize power anyway.
No country's immune to nutcasism, but the idea that given free reign to vote for whomever they like the British will suddenly vote Nazi seems like wild scaremongering.

Well, Farage would get a seat if we had PR.

That's more than enough for me to not embrace PR.

Other views are of course available.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Well, Farage would get a seat if we had PR.

That's more than enough for me to not embrace PR.

Other views are of course available.

And then he might, what, take us out of Europe?
Oh the horror.

I appreciate that gag will have been used before on this thread.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Well, Farage would get a seat if we had PR.

That's more than enough for me to not embrace PR.

Other views are of course available.

Greens and Lib Dems would get a lot more so 80 seat majorities would be a thing of the past.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Greens and Lib Dems would get a lot more so 80 seat majorities would be a thing of the past.

Majorities would be a thing of the past.

We would have a coalition, with Farage in the cabinet.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

And then he might, what, take us out of Europe?
Oh the horror.

I appreciate that gag will have been used before on this thread.

There is an infinity of mischief to be had.

He would double down on persecuting diversity, for starters.

No, I don't want ****s like that anywhere near parliament, let alone the cabinet.

They laughed at Hitler......

 

[Bob!]

Majorities would be a thing of the past.

We would have a coalition, with Farage in the cabinet.

It which General Elections have RW parties totalled 50% or more of the vote?

A Coalition is likely to be Lab/ SNP/ Plaid / Green and Liberal.

You could get Tory/ LibDem, which could include Reform/ UKIP, but the pull to the left from Lib is going to be stronger than the Ukip pull to the right.