[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...

[A1X]

You don’t donate money to the Tory party and have to face consequences for your wrongdoing

 

[Weststander]

Am I the only person here who wrote off this government and moved on ages ago? To me this is treading water as it was in the hapless/hopeless Major years [other than the masterful Ken Clarke].

I know it’s premature of me, but any big new Tory strategies will never get the chance to go beyond an idea.

Betfair forecasting something like 170 Tory MP’s, in effect, at the next GE.

 

[Bodian]

Am I the only person here who wrote off this government and moved on ages ago? To me this is treading water as it was in the hapless/hopeless Major years [other than the masterful Ken Clarke].

I know it’s premature of me, but any big new Tory strategies will never get the chance to go beyond an idea.

Betfair forecasting something like 170 Tory MP’s, in effect, at the next GE.

Currently predicting them to lose 200 or so. They have 351.

 

[Weststander]

Currently predicting them to lose 200 or so. They have 351.

Just looked it up, Corbyn got 203. Major 165 in 1997. So similarly useless …. if it pans out.

I’m more impatient or strategic than I realised. For ages thinking ahead to 2024 to 2029, two aspects:
1. Will Starmer/Reeves hit the ground running with big policies, enacted?
2. Will Coogan, protestors and the hard left try to ruin it all from day one … because they don’t get their own way on issues?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Am I the only person here who wrote off this government and moved on ages ago? To me this is treading water as it was in the hapless/hopeless Major years [other than the masterful Ken Clarke].

I know it’s premature of me, but any big new Tory strategies will never get the chance to go beyond an idea.

Betfair forecasting something like 170 Tory MP’s, in effect, at the next GE.

The country cannot move on from such widespread corruption on such a huge scale. The country needs a definite constitution, so any future government cannot disregard the laws as blatantly is this present lot.

 

[Scappa]

Just looked it up, Corbyn got 203. Major 165 in 1997. So similarly useless …. if it pans out.

I’m more impatient or strategic than I realised. For ages thinking ahead to 2024 to 2029, two aspects:
1. Will Starmer/Reeves hit the ground running with big policies, enacted?
2. Will Coogan, protestors and the hard left try to ruin it all from day one … because they don’t get their own way on issues?

3. Will a press that has shown minimal interest in investigating what this lot have been up to for more than a decade allow an incoming labour/lib dem/coalition government get on with the job of running the country, or will it suddenly gain a hitherto unseen zeal and ardour, going after anything their non-dom owners oppose and generally making it impossible to get anything done?

 

[Weststander]

The country cannot move on from such widespread corruption on such a huge scale. The country needs a definite constitution, so any future government cannot disregard the laws as blatantly is this present lot.

To me, some practical first steps:
1. MP’s no other income, within reason for example if they own a BTL. Declaring other in the register of interests isn’t good enough.
2. Ex ministers barred from certain income sources post being an MP for a period. To end the suspicion of being too close to bankers etc.
3. Minister not able to make significant decisions on procurement without parliamentary approval. In times of emergency, a cross party committee to oversee and vet. A criminal offence for a minister approving a contract with an associate, declared or not.
4. A review of lobbying. But it can’t end eg environmental experts might lobby over saving a special environ.
5. Parliamentarians only electable by the electorate.
6. Prorogue can only be decided by the House.

 

[Weststander]

3. Will a press that has shown minimal interest in investigating what this lot have been up to for more than a decade allow an incoming labour/lib dem/coalition government get on with the job of running the country, or will it suddenly gain a hitherto unseen zeal and ardour, going after anything their non-dom owners oppose and generally making it impossible to get anything done?

In the real world we or governments cannot change what the:
A) Mail/Scum/Express say vs
B) Mirror/Guardian/Independent.

If you’re correct, why haven’t (B) delivered a knock out blow.

A personal view, especially in a shite stirring social media age, I don’t know if the Mail and Express are important. Imho racists, xenophobes or people who like gossip about celebs read them. Why do people read the Mirror … they like Labour, but approve of gossip and nasty stories obtained illegally.

Genuinely, I can see the groups organising already, hard left and sanctimonious celebs preparing to slag off a Starmer government 24-7. Unelected and unelectable bystanders, deeming that Starmer and Reeves should bow to their every whim.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

To me, some practical first steps:
1. MP’s no other income, within reason for example if they own a BTL. Declaring other in the register of interests isn’t good enough.
2. Ex ministers barred from certain income sources post being an MP for a period. To end the suspicion of being too close to bankers etc.
3. Minister not able to make significant decisions on procurement without parliamentary approval. In times of emergency, a cross party committee to oversee and vet. A criminal offence for a minister approving a contract with an associate, declared or not.
4. A review of lobbying. But it can’t end eg environmental experts might lobby over saving a special environ.
5. Parliamentarians only electable by the electorate.
6. Prorogue can only be decided by the House.

I can’t argue with any of those. Being an MP has always been on trust, and they resigned if that trust went, but that’s gone forever now.

 

[Weststander]

I can’t argue with any of those. Being an MP has always been on trust, and they resigned if that trust went, but that’s gone forever now.

Mainly Tory I know, but also that awful SNP MP who knowingly broke Covid laws. Another thing to alter … MP’s to get booted out if they commit a criminal offence during their term. The MP Fiona Onasanya was convicted of lying about the person committing a driving offence, but because her prison sentence was just 3 months she hung on for dear life to keep her job as an MP.

 

[A1X]

To me, some practical first steps:
1. MP’s no other income, within reason for example if they own a BTL. Declaring other in the register of interests isn’t good enough.
2. Ex ministers barred from certain income sources post being an MP for a period. To end the suspicion of being too close to bankers etc.
3. Minister not able to make significant decisions on procurement without parliamentary approval. In times of emergency, a cross party committee to oversee and vet. A criminal offence for a minister approving a contract with an associate, declared or not.
4. A review of lobbying. But it can’t end eg environmental experts might lobby over saving a special environ.
5. Parliamentarians only electable by the electorate.
6. Prorogue can only be decided by the House.

I would also add any change of prime Minister should trigger a 6 month window during which a General Election must be held, it’s pretty outrageous that a government elected less than 4 years ago can now be on its third PM since without seeking a renewed mandate.

The exception would be if a PM dies in office, as you could reasonably claim there will likely be enough of a major upheaval in the country to justify letting things settle down.

 

[Weststander]

I would also add any change of prime Minister should trigger a 6 month window during which a General Election must be held, it’s pretty outrageous that a government elected less than 4 years ago can now be on its third PM since without seeking a renewed mandate.

Has it ever crossed your mind that if a PM goes, it should be a GE immediately (6 weeks later)? It has mine.

Callaghan, Brown, etc were never elected.

I fully realise and I will be told, that we just elect MP’s. I’m saying like you, change it.

The danger of our idea is that we end up in the Italian-like often chaos.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Mainly Tory I know, but also that awful SNP MP who knowingly broke Covid laws. Another thing to alter … MP’s to get booted out if they commit a criminal offence during their term. The MP Fiona Onasanya was convicted of lying about the person committing a driving offence, but because her prison sentence was just 3 months she hung on for dear life to keep her job as an MP.

Yet here we are with a Prime Minister who has also broken the law.
Yes, perverting the course of justice is an indictable offence and rightly she had to go.

Matt Hancock is trying to get immunity from prosecution at present from the covid enquiry, phones have disappeared but strangely still work when rung.

 

[Weststander]

Yet here we are with a Prime Minister who has also broken the law.
Yes, perverting the course of justice is an indictable offence and rightly she had to go.

Matt Hancock is trying to get immunity from prosecution at present from the covid enquiry, phones have disappeared but strangely still work when rung.

On that last point, I may differ from you. If MH (and many others) oversaw the movement of pensioners from hospitals to care homes, with best intentions and the knowledge at the time, I don’t think that’s anything like a crime. Belgium and France did exactly the same at that time, and similarly paid the price in lives lost. If you think back to Mar 2020, it almost felt like BBC’s Survivors was coming or the Black Death. Governments, scientists didn’t know what to do, it was all over reactions, trial and error. To have a billion FFP2 masks at the ready for say a hundred years, but having to be dumped every x years would be environmentally immoral.

Personally I’m interested in:
1. Going after Michelle Mone’s husband and their like financially.
2. Can corruption be proven to a criminal extent?
3. Going after the bounce-back loan and furlough fraudsters, Labour have promised this. Contrary to nsc gossip, these typically were not Tory donors. Just 10,000’s bent small business owners and assorted other crooks who set up businesses to steal our money. Criminals.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

On that last point, I may differ from you. If MH (and many others) oversaw the movement of pensioners from hospitals to care homes, with best intentions and the knowledge at the time, I don’t think that’s anything like a crime. Belgium and France did exactly the same at that time, and similarly paid the price in lives lost. If you think back to Mar 2020, it almost felt like BBC’s Survivors was coming or the Black Death. Governments, scientists didn’t know what to do, it was all over reactions, trial and error. To have a billion FFP2 masks at the ready for say a hundred years, but having to be dumped every x years would be environmentally immoral.

Personally I’m interested in:
1. Going after Michelle Mone’s husband and their like financially.
2. Can corruption be proven to a criminal extent?
3. Going after the bounce-back loan and furlough fraudsters, Labour have promised this. Contrary to nsc gossip, these typically were not Tory donors. Just 10,000’s bent small business owners and assorted other crooks who set up businesses to steal our money. Criminals.

It was obvious that old people with covid were being shipped out to care homes and nursing homes. Anecdotal, but I can remember an Argus story where 15 out of 20 people died in one nursing home, on Church Road in Hove. This was right at the beginning. My mother in law was in a care home in Sheffield and the staff there were very good. They commented to my sister in law, they were pleased they had no rooms available. Nobody died of covid there in two years.
My MIL did die in Dec 2020, but of sepsis, not covid.

 

[Weststander]

It was obvious that old people with covid were being shipped out to care homes and nursing homes. Anecdotal, but I can remember an Argus story where 15 out of 20 people died in one nursing home, on Church Road in Hove. This was right at the beginning. My mother in law was in a care home in Sheffield and the staff there were very good. They commented to my sister in law, they were pleased they had no rooms available. Nobody died of covid there in two years.
My MIL did die in Dec 2020, but of sepsis, not covid.

Sepsis is a rarely talked about silent killer. I attended the funeral of a friend yesterday who died from it and a linked infection, just 58!

Conversely, I hope the enquiry covers the lack of visiting to relatives. Well into 2022 many nursing homes unilaterally prevented family seeing their loved ones. Barbaric.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Sepsis is a rarely talked about silent killer. I attended the funeral of a friend yesterday who died from it and a linked infection, just 58!

Conversely, I hope the enquiry covers the lack of visiting to relatives. Well into 2022 many nursing homes unilaterally prevented family seeing their loved ones. Barbaric.

I agree. I won’t go into the details of my MIL funeral arrangements and having to travel to Yorkshire which was in tier 4 at the time. Horrific doesn’t describe it.

 

[A1X]

Has it ever crossed your mind that if a PM goes, it should be a GE immediately (6 weeks later)? It has mine.

Callaghan, Brown, etc were never elected.

I fully realise and I will be told, that we just elect MP’s. I’m saying like you, change it.

The danger of our idea is that we end up in the Italian-like often chaos.

I do, I just think 6 weeks is a bit too short a time, plus it becomes tough to organise an election and it holds you hostage to the seasons. Six months allows a little extra scope.

I certainly think it needs to happen no later than that. It would hopefully also stop both main parties (although one in more guilty of it than the other) of changing the leader willy-nilly, it puts genuine peril on their own jobs.

 

[WATFORD zero]

On that last point, I may differ from you. If MH (and many others) oversaw the movement of pensioners from hospitals to care homes, with best intentions and the knowledge at the time, I don’t think that’s anything like a crime. Belgium and France did exactly the same at that time, and similarly paid the price in lives lost. If you think back to Mar 2020, it almost felt like BBC’s Survivors was coming or the Black Death. Governments, scientists didn’t know what to do, it was all over reactions, trial and error. To have a billion FFP2 masks at the ready for say a hundred years, but having to be dumped every x years would be environmentally immoral.

Personally I’m interested in:
1. Going after Michelle Mone’s husband and their like financially.
2. Can corruption be proven to a criminal extent?
3. Going after the bounce-back loan and furlough fraudsters, Labour have promised this. Contrary to nsc gossip, these typically were not Tory donors. Just 10,000’s bent small business owners and assorted other crooks who set up businesses to steal our money. Criminals.

You've missed prosecutions for setting up dodgy companies for the PPE 'Fast Path Program' which, of course, has already been ruled illegal

 

[Weststander]

I do, I just think 6 weeks is a bit too short a time, plus it becomes tough to organise an election and it holds you hostage to the seasons. Six months allows a little extra scope.

I certainly think it needs to happen no later than that. It would hopefully also stop both main parties (although one in more guilty of it than the other) of changing the leader willy-nilly, it puts genuine peril on their own jobs.

I bet it doesn’t change. Labour in power wouldn’t want this if eg KS was ousted. Governments like to pick the moment when riding better in the polls.