[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...

[keaton]

It's absolutely to do with emotion, we can't touch the NHS because it's "the best in the world" it's not, it's nowhere near the best and it's certainly nothing to be proud of, the service and not some of the staff of course.
Is there any other major nation that has the same sort of healthcare system?

Healthcare needs to be taken out of politics and looked after by an independent body.

On the last line we agree completely. On the rest I'm not sure I'm the one putting emotion in there

 

[Dick Swiveller]

It was quite remarkable - He's not going to 'speculate' on whether or not HS2 to Manchester will happen - It's not speculation if it's your decision you thick tw@t.

He also mentioned the 'uprising' in Wales over the default 20mph limit like it was the civil rights movement in 1960s US rather than what it actually is. A few morons who find driving so difficult that apparently none of their cars have a gear that allow them to drive at 20.

I think the question you should be asking is what people on the doorsteps are saying as I go around the country.

See, I can do it.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

There isn't evidence they are doing it, im sure some would love to do it, but they won't because they know it will be suicide.

It's likely Labour will be in power next year, they have also called for reforms rather than more money

There is evidence. You don’t want to believe it.
I could post half a dozen links

Tories raking in money from private health firms as NHS is on its knees

A number of high ranking and wealthy Conservative party members have links to private health care companies which, in turn, are profiting from the current NHS crisis

www.mirror.co.uk

The Conservative Party’s Private Healthcare Patrons

Sam Bright and Sian Norris explore the financial ties between Conservative MPs and private health companies

bylinetimes.com

 

[beorhthelm]

That's always the go to line

"You want a US healthcare service" which is absolutely shite

I'd quite like a German one instead thanks, many options between NHS and USA options.

Till we take the emotion out of the discussion, the health care will never improve here.

there isn't even a "US healthcare service", there are half a dozen or so programmes across national, state, employer, insurance schemes. it's a mess they wouldn't do if starting again, it's not a design. they have parts that look a lot like NHS with state based insurance, while others have no insurance or coverage at all. there's plenty of other models to look at to help modify our health system. people say healthcare is great in France, Germany or Sweden, then say we cant change ours because we'll go for a caricature US model. simply fear mongering that impedes change.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

there isn't even a "US healthcare service", there are half a dozen or so programmes across national, state, employer, insurance schemes. it's a mess they wouldn't do if starting again, it's not a design. they have parts that look a lot like NHS with state based insurance, while others have no insurance or coverage at all. there's plenty of other models to look at to help modify our health system. people say healthcare is great in France, Germany or Sweden, then say we cant change ours because we'll go for a caricature US model. simply fear mongering that impedes change.

Fear mongering? No.

 

[Pevenseagull]

Sunak is being shredded by Laura K and just keeps talking over her. Way, way out of his depth as someone to BS to her questions. Surely that is the one quality you need?

He's rather rubbish at not answering questions.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

I could post half a dozen links

Tories raking in money from private health firms as NHS is on its knees

A number of high ranking and wealthy Conservative party members have links to private health care companies which, in turn, are profiting from the current NHS crisis

www.mirror.co.uk

The Conservative Party’s Private Healthcare Patrons

Sam Bright and Sian Norris explore the financial ties between Conservative MPs and private health companies

bylinetimes.com

That's not really evidence of the Tories want to turn the NHS into the US Healthcare service, they have had 13 years, if they wanted to do it they would have already have done it, how many years in charge do they need to do it?

The mirror one lists names and haven't listed anything they have done wrong, and it's been disclosed, I'd agree MPs shouldn't take money from any one other than the wage they get from the job being paid to lobby shouldn't be a thing.

As I said previously, I'm sure some would like to take it private and in line with the states, but it's not going to happen is it, it would lead to that party being blown away for years.

Pushing the idea of it's US or NHS is rubbish, and blocking any chance of change

 

[Thunder Bolt]

That's not really evidence of the Tories want to turn the NHS into the US Healthcare service, they have had 13 years, if they wanted to do it they would have already have done it, how many years in charge do they need to do it?

The mirror one lists names and haven't listed anything they have done wrong, and it's been disclosed, I'd agree MPs shouldn't take money from any one other than the wage they get from the job being paid to lobby shouldn't be a thing.

As I said previously, I'm sure some would like to take it private and in line with the states, but it's not going to happen is it, it would lead to that party being blown away for years.

Pushing the idea of it's US or NHS is rubbish, and blocking any chance of change

The Conservatives change things one step at a time. It took from 1992, with the Eurosceptics to 2016 to enable Brexit, and another 4 years to leave. They work on propaganda knowing people would resist if they tried to change things too quickly.
It’s like being in an abusive relationship. Promise much, and gradually break every promise.

 

[Guinness Boy]

On Rwanda. Worth watching.

 

[Bakero]

Come off it.

My ex-girlfriend lived in a rather deprived former mining town in West Yorkshire, around 15 miles from Leeds. Her Uncle worked from the age of 15 until retirement aged 60 in the colliery. He went from leaving school at 15 to going down a mine for 12 hours 5-6 days a week (Sundays off) for very little money, to running the entire pit and several others. He is the epitome of working class made good.

He was staunch Labour his entire life, and a regional union leader. He worked very long days, never travelled abroad, and the only holidays he took were yearly weekends in Scarborough, or occasionally Skegness.

He saved all his money to start a family with his wife. They lived modestly, rarely eating out in a small terraced house near the colliery so he wouldn’t have to drive and run a car.

Sadly, they couldn’t have children of their own. My ex-girlfriend was like a surrogate daughter to them, and they spoilt her rotten to give her all the chances that many growing up in a deprived area didn’t have. They left their entire inheritance to her, which given they saved every penny after a lifetime of work and no children, was a sizeable amount. This paid for a private education. Her first property bought for her. Driving lessons and a car.

She was the first person in her family to go to University. Thanks to the chances given to her, she was hugely successful.

Now; are you suggesting the right thing to do would be to have taken 80% of everything her Uncle and Aunt had earned, scrimped, saved and frugally to provide for their “only child” should have been taken away and given to the state?

You need to grow up, son.

So your ex had a privileged upbringing, a free car, a free house and went on to have a successful career. And you're upset at the idea that some of the free money she was given might have been taxed?

What's the concern? Are you worried she wouldn't have been able to pay for the maids and gardeners?

 

[jcdenton08]

So your ex had a privileged upbringing, a free car, a free house and went on to have a successful career. And you're upset at the idea that some of the free money she was given might have been taxed?

What's the concern? Are you worried she wouldn't have been able to pay for the maids and gardeners?

Yes, that is what I am worried about. Why not, if that helps.

 

[Bakero]

Yes, that is what I am worried about. Why not, if that helps.

Ok, well explain why you think taxation of someone who's been handed everything is unfair?

 

[jcdenton08]

Ok, well explain why you think taxation of someone who's been handed everything is unfair?

I don’t and never said they shouldn’t be taxed. Go back and carefully re-read everything I’ve said on the matter. If you still have any questions, feel free to ask.

 

[Bakero]

I don’t and never said they shouldn’t be taxed. Go back and carefully re-read everything I’ve said on the matter. If you still have any questions, feel free to ask.

Looking back at the post I originally quoted, I see you mention an 80% rate, presumbly in response to @Hugo Rune 's suggestion.

He said 80% above 500k. Let's say the estate was worth a million, she still would've got over 500 grand for doing nothing. Plus there's a tidy sum to the tax man to help pay for things that benefit the less fortunate as well as the rich. Everyone's a winner. Especially, the lucky recipient of all that free cash.

 

[rogersix]

That's not really evidence of the Tories want to turn the NHS into the US Healthcare service, they have had 13 years, if they wanted to do it they would have already have done it, how many years in charge do they need to do it?

The mirror one lists names and haven't listed anything they have done wrong, and it's been disclosed, I'd agree MPs shouldn't take money from any one other than the wage they get from the job being paid to lobby shouldn't be a thing.

As I said previously, I'm sure some would like to take it private and in line with the states, but it's not going to happen is it, it would lead to that party being blown away for years.

Pushing the idea of it's US or NHS is rubbish, and blocking any chance of change

as the tories know it would be political suicide to privatise the nhs, they do it bit by bit (eg cleaning contracts), and run the rest into the ground by underfunding. thus generating the necessary headlines in the right wing press to convince the public that there is no alternative to the american model. the long game

 

[dsr-burnley]

Yes yes there are - but the NHS was sold to me as a free service, my whole life I always assumed that the NHS would look after me and my family. That’s what I paid taxes for
Are you saying you would move to the US model?
If ever one of my kids was Ill on holiday in Europe, the service we received was just amazing. Didn’t have to wait 24 hours in an overcrowded A and E
Your problem is that you’ve been levelled down so much you forgot what to expect from this wonderful country of ours.
Your wonderful Tories have done this to us
Or maybe Burnley is now a beautiful sunny utopia in the UK and you haven’t noticed what the rest of us have to put up with.

Sheesh. Honestly Das - think

No, I'm not saying I would move to the US model. Repeat not. I wouldn't like to be misunderstood on this - so I will repeat that I do not like the US model.

The line "Surely other countries, perhaps those in the beloved EU, have healthcare systems that we could investigate?" was intended to suggest that perhaps other EU countries have a system that we could adapt, and I'm sorry that you took it (or anything else in the post) to express support for the US system. I'm at a bit of a loss how you thought I was, frankly.

Wouldn't you be in favour of looking at how these European countries (you don't say whether EU or not, but most European countries are) do it better than us? Or worse than us, if that's the case?

 

[dsr-burnley]

as the tories know it would be political suicide to privatise the nhs, they do it bit by bit (eg cleaning contracts), and run the rest into the ground by underfunding. thus generating the necessary headlines in the right wing press to convince the public that there is no alternative to the american model. the long game

If they wanted to generate headlines that neither the UK nor any EU system is any good, then they would have to run down the European models as well. Most people, not just the people on this board, know that European countries also have healthcare systems.

Remember that it was Labour who privatised the GP service right from the start, and have shown no remorse or desire to reverse it. It's hard to criticise the employment of a cleaner through an agency firm when doctors are employed on that basis, and have been since day 1.

 

[Nobby]

No, I'm not saying I would move to the US model. Repeat not. I wouldn't like to be misunderstood on this - so I will repeat that I do not like the US model.

The line "Surely other countries, perhaps those in the beloved EU, have healthcare systems that we could investigate?" was intended to suggest that perhaps other EU countries have a system that we could adapt, and I'm sorry that you took it (or anything else in the post) to express support for the US system. I'm at a bit of a loss how you thought I was, frankly.

Wouldn't you be in favour of looking at how these European countries (you don't say whether EU or not, but most European countries are) do it better than us? Or worse than us, if that's the case?

“You lost me at “beloved EU”

 

[Bodian]

It was quite remarkable - He's not going to 'speculate' on whether or not HS2 to Manchester will happen - It's not speculation if it's your decision you thick tw@t.

Amazing deflection from actually saying what he's planning!

 

[WATFORD zero]

No, I'm not saying I would move to the US model. Repeat not. I wouldn't like to be misunderstood on this - so I will repeat that I do not like the US model.

The line "Surely other countries, perhaps those in the beloved EU, have healthcare systems that we could investigate?" was intended to suggest that perhaps other EU countries have a system that we could adapt, and I'm sorry that you took it (or anything else in the post) to express support for the US system. I'm at a bit of a loss how you thought I was, frankly.

Wouldn't you be in favour of looking at how these European countries (you don't say whether EU or not, but most European countries are) do it better than us? Or worse than us, if that's the case?

But Johnson has already convinced you and the other converts that the EU is the devil incarnate and the ECHR is the source of all our woes hence

Are there any other healthcare systems apart from the UK and the USA? It seems to be a general assumption that there are no alternatives to the NHS, the system that used to be called the "envy of the world", other than the US model. Surely other countries, perhaps those in the beloved EU, have healthcare systems that we could investigate?

If they now started looking at what Europe does well, It would cause utter confusion amongst their converts.

Besides, they may not be able to scam as much money out of those systems as an American style one. Which reminds me, I wonder when the Independent report on the illegal PPE fast track program they introduced is due to report