[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...

[beorhthelm]

I wonder when the Tories are actually going to take stock of what's happening in this country and think: should we not try something different? Have they all given up, and are now just focussed on their own private agendas? Presumably at least SOMEONE at CCHQ might be thinking: Perhaps picking fights with nurses and ambulance drivers isn't such a great idea after all? Maybe going on about small boats isn't the vote-winner we thought it was? Perhaps we should stop trying to destroy the NHS, the environment, agriculture, trade....? How about helping those who can't afford to heat their homes? Is this culture war, anti-"woke" stuff really working? Perhaps people don't want more coal mines and north sea oil after all?

I'm sceptical as to the real extent of the poll lead, as I think a reasonable proportion of Tories are probably too embarrassed to admit they will vote Conservative at the next election. But there is a long term trend here which has not looked good for the Tories for some time - and they just keep doubling down on the awful policies that have got them there.

strategists in CCHQ are counting on an improving economy, inflation and energy prices down, strikes resolved (expect larger offers this year) in a year to 18mths. and yes to a large minority, small boats and culture wars, are a vote winner. its about resistance to change which is a thing for naturally conservative middle England, otherwise they wouldnt be such prominent issues. they wont do enough to outright win an election of course, Stamer will attract a lot of voters simply tired of Conservatives, it'll be about damage limitation.

 

[Machiavelli]

right to buy means changing the ownership of a property, its doesn't reduce the housing stock and doesn't prevent building. it had benefits and flaws, avoid the fixation on that. the policy to prohibt councils replacing stock is a far far bigger problem. get rid of that and councils would be invovled in new social housing and other infrastructure, change from anti-development to pro-development.

Those two policies are related. What's the point of a council building housing if they have to flog it off the minute that it's built?

 

[Machiavelli]

The polling put Corbyn so many points ahead. Then look what happened.

You have a different memory to me. And to the historical record of the opinion polls

Opinion polling for the 2019 United Kingdom general election - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[beorhthelm]

Those two policies are related. What's the point of a council building housing if they have to flog it off the minute that it's built?

may be related, but not interdependent. the lack of building is not because of right to buy. lets focus on the building that's needed eitherway, councils should be allowed to build to replace even if they are sold at some future point (still new housing stock).

more to the point, complete end of right to buy wont itself build a single house, this is just a distraction.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Totally agree and it really sums up why they are finished as a political force for a long time. Historical parallels with Labour and many other parties around the world that remain in power too long. I used to be anti (platform to extremists, 1930s Germany etc) PR but now I am convinced its the only way we can have a government that consistently understands that it has a responsibility to ALL its citizens.

First, apologies - I'm not deliberately picking on you today.

Now....I don't see how PR will sort out the problem (what problem? That we have a shitty tory government). We will have a general election and someone will win. If enough people want the tories out, labour may win. Or it will be a hung parliament. It is what it is. How could it be different, even with PR?

PR would not have stopped Boris winning last time. Albeit maybe, just maybe, he may have had to form a coalition with the liberals. That went well, last time....

And PR won't deliver whatever it is you want from the next general election. What would that be, even? A large labour majority? A weak labour majority meaning the tories may be able to sabotage labour's plans (like the republican senate does when there is a Democrat president)? A hung parliament so that nobody can get any legislation passed?

Oh, hang on. Of course. If we have PR then labour and the tories would be forced to be polite to one another and considerate, and work up moderate policies that the nation has truly hankered for since time immemorial, and we cold all live happily ever after, like the Germans. do And the Italians..

No. Sorry. It is more likely that we'd have Farage in parliament, pissing in the well, like he always does.

 

[clapham_gull]

Tory manifesto leak.

Turnips and work longer hours.

Eat turnips during vegetable shortage, suggests Therese Coffey

Cabinet minister says consumers should "cherish" home-grown produce as shops limit sales of some items.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[clapham_gull]

The polling put Corbyn so many points ahead. Then look what happened.

Yeah never trust the polling. Especially if it looks as rosy as that.

Yes, but the Tories are completely bereft of ideas and I think that's actually what the polls show.

I would suspect them to squeeze if the Government were able to articulate what their plan is....

.. anyone ?

 

[A1X]

 

[beorhthelm]

No. Sorry. It is more likely that we'd have Farage in parliament, pissing in the well, like he always does.

everyone ignores the downside to PR. supporters cant decide which type of PR they want, and we know how great that is for policy implementation

 

[vegster]

Because they are not a political party. They are the political branch of the elite.

They are in power purely to protect the interests of the rich and to make wealthy people wealthier. If they ruin the lives of normal people or sink the U.K. while providing this service to the rich? They don’t care a jot.

You are precisely correct, 13 years of Tory government and I don't think I can find a single national issue that has improved under their watch. The party of " Business " has destroyed the lives and hopes of millions. they were handed a functioning NHS which has collapsed under their control, millions of public service workers across so many professions feel so undervalued that they are voting for, and taking, industrial action... Profession's that were not naturally militant have been forced to take this action, Nurses, Junior Doctors, Fire Brigade staff, even Ambulance and Paramedic staff, that's how far this country has fallen...


Yet still the pricks cling on, they have nothing to offer the population now except division, lies and hatred and now they want to interfere with football but, what's the point ? Why not focus on the real issues that people are facing NOW. Bastards.

 

[The Clamp]

You are precisely correct, 13 years of Tory government and I don't think I can find a single national issue that has improved under their watch. The party of " Business " has destroyed the lives and hopes of millions. they were handed a functioning NHS which has collapsed under their control, millions of public service workers across so many professions feel so undervalued that they are voting for, and taking, industrial action... Profession's that were not naturally militant have been forced to take this action, Nurses, Junior Doctors, Fire Brigade staff, even Ambulance and Paramedic staff, that's how far this country has fallen...


Yet still the pricks cling on, they have nothing to offer the population now except division, lies and hatred and now they want to interfere with football but, what's the point ? Why not focus on the real issues that people are facing NOW. Bastards.

Because they’re not interested in fixing problems?
Their policies are working for someone. It ain’t us!

 

[WATFORD zero]

First, apologies - I'm not deliberately picking on you today.

Now....I don't see how PR will sort out the problem (what problem? That we have a shitty tory government). We will have a general election and someone will win. If enough people want the tories out, labour may win. Or it will be a hung parliament. It is what it is. How could it be different, even with PR?

PR would not have stopped Boris winning last time. Albeit maybe, just maybe, he may have had to form a coalition with the liberals. That went well, last time....

And PR won't deliver whatever it is you want from the next general election. What would that be, even? A large labour majority? A weak labour majority meaning the tories may be able to sabotage labour's plans (like the republican senate does when there is a Democrat president)? A hung parliament so that nobody can get any legislation passed?

Oh, hang on. Of course. If we have PR then labour and the tories would be forced to be polite to one another and considerate, and work up moderate policies that the nation has truly hankered for since time immemorial, and we cold all live happily ever after, like the Germans. do And the Italians..

No. Sorry. It is more likely that we'd have Farage in parliament, pissing in the well, like he always does.

You know that you and me have VERY different views on FPTP v PR. I believe that if we had PR we would have at least a couple of 'Labour' parties, a similar number of 'conservative' parties and a fair mix of others. We could all choose one that far more accurately effects our views, and wouldn't have to share a party with people we think are complete f***wits in the clamour for power.

But we won't be able to sort this until we are face to face over a beer, and as far as I'm aware our only mutual friend @papajaff would never arrange it as it would be his very definition of a Boring afternoon

 

[The Clamp]

Environment secretary urges Britons to ‘cherish’ turnips amid food shortages

Thérèse Coffey’s championing of UK ‘specialisms’ causes one Labour MP to retort: ‘Let them eat turnips!’

www.theguardian.com

 

[abc]

First, apologies - I'm not deliberately picking on you today.

Now....I don't see how PR will sort out the problem (what problem? That we have a shitty tory government). We will have a general election and someone will win. If enough people want the tories out, labour may win. Or it will be a hung parliament. It is what it is. How could it be different, even with PR?

PR would not have stopped Boris winning last time. Albeit maybe, just maybe, he may have had to form a coalition with the liberals. That went well, last time....

And PR won't deliver whatever it is you want from the next general election. What would that be, even? A large labour majority? A weak labour majority meaning the tories may be able to sabotage labour's plans (like the republican senate does when there is a Democrat president)? A hung parliament so that nobody can get any legislation passed?

Oh, hang on. Of course. If we have PR then labour and the tories would be forced to be polite to one another and considerate, and work up moderate policies that the nation has truly hankered for since time immemorial, and we cold all live happily ever after, like the Germans. do And the Italians..

No. Sorry. It is more likely that we'd have Farage in parliament, pissing in the well, like he always does.

Not feeling picked on at all!
I guess I'm just fed up with the same old choice - Labour or Tories. Right now its a no brainer of course but lets be honest, there is zero trust, respect or belief in all politics, politicians and parties amongst most of the electorate. IMHO, we need everyone's votes to count so that people feel its worth voting if you don't happen to live in a marginal seat and its worth taking an interest in actual policy. I don't actually want to see the Greens (as an example) in power right now (and it will never happen under the 1st past the post system) but I would like to see them properly represented in the commons given 850 000 people voted for them.
Under PR I believe every seat will effectively become marginal because every vote counts. We would have a much more politically diverse Commons which would prevent any section of society being unrepresented. Furthermore, no party would have such a big majority that the leaders can lie, be corrupt etc and get away with it.
I also don't believe the Cons/Lib dem coalition is particularly relevant because this wasn't a coalition born out of PR but out of the same old first past the post system which favours the two main parties. 'Normal service' was always going to resume.
I really think PR would make all politicians of all parties wake up and realise that they are responsible to all the electorate and lets be honest, what the f**ck have we got to lose!?

 

[beorhthelm]

I really think PR would make all politicians of all parties wake up and realise that they are responsible to all the electorate and lets be honest, what the f**ck have we got to lose!?

when you look abroad all PR does is create smaller tribal factions, that then form coalitions along familiar lines. they're still chasing their tribal vote not "all the electorate".

 

[WATFORD zero]

when you look abroad all PR does is create smaller tribal factions, that then form coalitions along familiar lines. they're still chasing their tribal vote not "all the electorate".

I'm sorry but you are the ultimate 'conservative'. Not in the political sense but you will always defend the status quo and you are on here all day, every day doing it. Whenever I have actually taken the time to engage you in serious discussion about any subject, you always claim some sort of 'misunderstanding' and are unable to defend the position you have taken.

But despite 20+ years of this I really only have one question. Why don't/can't you use capital letters

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

everyone ignores the downside to PR. supporters cant decide which type of PR they want, and we know how great that is for policy implementation

Anything that takes more than 20 seconds to explain to the electorate is tomorrow's chip wrapper

(I had that confirmed by canvassing a cohort of cognoscenti, and undertaking a single reversible transferable reciprocal vote)

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I'm sorry but you are the ultimate 'conservative'. Not in the political sense but you will always defend the status quo and you are on here all day, every day doing it. Whenever I have actually taken the time to engage you in serious discussion about any subject, you always claim some sort of 'misunderstanding' and are unable to defend the position you have taken.

But despite 20+ years of this I really only have one question. Why don't/can't you use capital letters

To be fair to @beorhthelm, with whom I instinctively disagree under most circumstances, I'm not sure that the dismissal ("conservative") is helpful. I admire his skepticism. If it can be challenged successfully, we might be on to a winner.

 

[WATFORD zero]

To be fair to @beorhthelm, with whom I instinctively disagree under most circumstances, I'm not sure that the dismissal ("conservative") is helpful. I admire his skepticism. If it can be challenged successfully, we might be on to a winner.

In my experience, whenever that skepticism is challenged it goes backwards at a serious rate of knots

I guess I just struggle with somebody who has such strong and forthright views on Brexit, Energy, Economics, Transport, Housing. Politics, Wars, Northern Ireland, Ukraine, Farming, Logistics, Fishing (I could go on ) being totally incapable of using capital letters.

It's probably just me

 

[beorhthelm]

To be fair to @beorhthelm, with whom I instinctively disagree under most circumstances, I'm not sure that the dismissal ("conservative") is helpful. I admire his skepticism. If it can be challenged successfully, we might be on to a winner.

thanks. even after taking on board views or agreeing, the poster choses to dig me out over some bygone argument.

But despite 20+ years of this I really only have one question. Why don't/can't you use capital letters

as i'm sure i've said muliple times, it's just became an idiom. . only do it here. good derailment to make it all about a poster.