[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...

[abc]

Labour would scare the floating voters away if it proposed something like this policy now. Starmer is moving cautiously towards the election. This is an election Labour must not lose otherwise we will slide even further in to anarchy and division. I'm hoping that Labour have many progressive inclusive policies that can only be revealed post election.

Surely that means that they go into power being as dishonest as the Tories? If Labour/Starmer cant fight an election on genuine policies that they can defend and justify under scrutiny from the electorate then they don't deserve power. There will never be a time when most people are as open as they are now to new policy and real change.

 

[jcdenton08]

Surely that means that they go into power being as dishonest as the Tories? If Labour/Starmer cant fight an election on genuine policies that they can defend and justify under scrutiny from the electorate then they don't deserve power. There will never be a time when most people are as open as they are now to new policy and real change.

I heard all the same things when Corbyn went to the ballot boxes and lost though. What is different now? There was an appetite for change then too, but they went too hard too soon. Something Starmer is far too sensible to do.

 

[The Clamp]

right to buy means changing the ownership of a property, its doesn't reduce the housing stock and doesn't prevent building. it had benefits and flaws, avoid the fixation on that. the policy to prohibt councils replacing stock is a far far bigger problem. get rid of that and councils would be invovled in new social housing and other infrastructure, change from anti-development to pro-development.

It vastly reduces the stock of affordable housing and housing for vulnerable people.

Before Thatcher, the occupant would die and the property would go back into circulation. After Thatcher, the owner dies and the house goes to their offspring or gets sold to pay for care costs.

In real terms, it reduces the stock of affordable housing.

 

[abc]

Do you think there’s a possibility what they’re saying is true, and it’s not a conspiracy to hide Brexit’s culpability in causing a record low harvest?

Perhaps they’re reporting the truth, and you disagree with it because of your feelings on Brexit?

As you might be inferring, its a tad more complicated than just Brexit though it does play a part.

British supermarkets have screwed UK farmers and growers so hard for so many years that margins are almost non existent. Tesco and the like always buy a % of imported produce at a higher price simply to ensure that there is a surplus of UK produce which enables them to keep the UK grower's price down. This has resulted in many UK farms and particularly fruit and veg growers either going bust or reducing the amount they grow. Then UK winter production of crops like tomatoes means heated greenhouses and the price of gas (due to Ukraine etc) has finished many off. Consequently the UK supply of toms etc has collapsed. This is not the fault of Brexit.

However, Brexit has meant exporting to the UK is now much more expensive and complicated than it used to be. Hence priority is given to EU and other markets. This is the fault of Brexit but the consequent shortages are also the fault of the supermarkets (see above) who have created a dependency on imported produce.

Unfortunately this is going to get much worse when we move into the seasonal period for British produce. Farmers and growers have very significantly reduced their plantings for the coming season because of the increase in costs and the supermarkets refusal to pay a fair price (even though they have raised prices on the shelves and increased their own profits). There will therefore be far less home produced fruit and veg but there will be limited imports to replace them OR imports will be significantly more expensive than if we had produced them here.

We have a government that doesn't believe in domestic food sustainability or security, so I cant see this situation improving for the forseeable.

 

[abc]

I heard all the same things when Corbyn went to the ballot boxes and lost though. What is different now? There was an appetite for change then too, but they went too hard too soon. Something Starmer is far too sensible to do.

I agree with you but not a reason to be dishonest surely?

 

[jcdenton08]

As you might be inferring, its a tad more complicated than just Brexit though it does play a part.

British supermarkets have screwed UK farmers and growers so hard for so many years that margins are almost non existent. Tesco and the like always buy a % of imported produce at a higher price simply to ensure that there is a surplus of UK produce which enables them to keep the UK grower's price down. This has resulted in many UK farms and particularly fruit and veg growers either going bust or reducing the amount they grow. Then UK winter production of crops like tomatoes means heated greenhouses and the price of gas (due to Ukraine etc) has finished many off. Consequently the UK supply of toms etc has collapsed. This is not the fault of Brexit.

However, Brexit has meant exporting to the UK is now much more expensive and complicated than it used to be. Hence priority is given to EU and other markets. This is the fault of Brexit but the consequent shortages are also the fault of the supermarkets (see above) who have created a dependency on imported produce.

Unfortunately this is going to get much worse when we move into the seasonal period for British produce. Farmers and growers have very significantly reduced their plantings for the coming season because of the increase in costs and the supermarkets refusal to pay a fair price (even though they have raised prices on the shelves and increased their own profits). There will therefore be far less home produced fruit and veg but there will be limited imports to replace them OR imports will be significantly more expensive than if we had produced them here.

We have a government that doesn't believe in domestic food sustainability or security, so I cant see this situation improving for the forseeable.

Seems to be, we are both clearly Labour at the next election. We just have different ideas on policy and election strategy.

 

[jcdenton08]

I agree with you but not a reason to be dishonest surely?

I don’t think dishonesty is the same as the omission of introducing policies while in opposition which sound great to the core Labour, but are not realistically achievable when in government. Remember, politics remains the art of the possible. Starmer is doing a fantastic job with understanding this.

 

[abc]

It vastly reduces the stock of affordable housing and housing for vulnerable people.

Before Thatcher, the occupant would die and the property would go back into circulation. After Thatcher, the owner dies and the house goes to their offspring or gets sold to pay for care costs.

In real terms, it reduces the stock of affordable housing.

Correct. If the councils had been given the all the sale income to build new houses then this would have made a difference. But even then, if the first tenant has a right to buy then nothing is gained in the long term. A new updated version of council housing, without right to buy, has the potential to solve many problem in the long term for those that need it.

 

[abc]

Seems to be, we are both clearly Labour at the next election. We just have different ideas on policy and election strategy.

Well, i cant imagine voting for anyone else. But I would like to know what I am voting for and be inspired, rather than voting for 'anyone but the Tories' which would be the case right now.

 

[jcdenton08]

Well, i cant imagine voting for anyone else. But I would like to know what I am voting for and be inspired, rather than voting for 'anyone but the Tories' which would be the case right now.

You’re voting for centrist politics which is the best Labour are going to get. It wins elections.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Surely that means that they go into power being as dishonest as the Tories? If Labour/Starmer cant fight an election on genuine policies that they can defend and justify under scrutiny from the electorate then they don't deserve power. There will never be a time when most people are as open as they are now to new policy and real change.

Naïve.

Thatcher didn't get in by promising mass privatization. She got in by claiming 'Britain isn't working'. Then promptly trebled unemployment.

It isn't what you promise, it is what you do that matters. My expectation is labour will do things that I prefer, compared with the things the tories have been doing and will continue to do if not stopped. That's enough for me for now.

Rolling out a load of policies so that the tories can gleefully gaslight them for the next 2 years would be the actions of a madman, hellbent on political suicide

 

[jcdenton08]

Naïve.

Thatcher didn't get in by promising mass privatization. She got in by claiming 'Britain isn't working'. Then promptly trebled unemployment.

It isn't what you promise, it is what you do that matters. My expectation is labour will do thinks that I prefer, compared with the things the tories have been doing and will continue to do if not stopped. That's enough for me for now.

Rolling out a load of policies so that the tories can gleefully gaslight them for the next 2 years would be the actions of a madman, hellbent on political suicide

Not just the Tories and the Tory press either. It’s easy to forget the Labour Party are very dysfunctional too, there will be lots of problems within.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Not just the Tories and the Tory press either. It’s easy to forget the Labour Party are very dysfunctional too, there will be lots of problems within.

I don't agree. There are still loonies lurking in the wings, and they have tried to stir up shit (there was some massive scandal they attempted to enflame some months ago and it was such a five second wonder I can't even remember what it was about). There is no evidence they have any traction now Corbyn is no longer leader. Starmer has seen them off without there even being a fight.

I'd be interested to know where you got the 'very dysfunctional' notion from.

 

[jcdenton08]

I don't agree. There are still loonies lurking in the wings, and they have tried to stir up shit (there was some massive scandal they attempted to enflame some months ago and it was such a five second wonder I can't even remember what it was about). There is no evidence they have any traction now Corbyn is no longer leader. Starmer has seen them off without there even being a fight.

I'd be interested to know where you got the 'very dysfunctional' notion from.

Hi mate.

Because while the remnants of Momentum have been ousted from the shadow cabinet, they still push and will push popular “native” constituency backbench candidates who are pro-Momentum, because they will win their seats easily.

Until the public is adjusted to the idea of new-new Labour, there will always be the need for these types of candidates in certain constituencies. The alternative would be like putting a centre-left candidate in Mid Sussex.

With Labour being such a huge party, consensus is much harder to achieve.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Hi mate.

Because while the remnants of Momentum have been ousted from the shadow cabinet, they still push and will push popular “native” constituency backbench candidates who are pro-Momentum, because they will win their seats easily.

Until the public is adjusted to the idea of new-new Labour, there will always be the need for these types of candidates in certain constituencies. The alternative would be like putting a centre-left candidate in Mid Sussex.

With Labour being such a huge party, consensus is much harder to achieve.

Sure there are left candidates supported by momentum, but at the end of the day backbenchers are just lobby fodder (until they rebel - something that happens only when it looks like the leadership will lose them their seats, vide Johnson). My point was and is that dinosaurs ('old' labour MPs) can learn to behave, driven by survival instinct and a sense that backing the leader will bring some change, even if it isn't a socialist nirvana, Fushal, or Narnia. Look how Prezza got behind and stayed loyal to Mr Tony.

No, I don't see a large cabal of loony lefties sneaking into government on the coat tails of Starmer's popularity, then stabbing him in the back. Labour is a broad church, but it is, after all, a church, and the truly demented (like Bob Crow) soon find themselves in another 'party' of agit-prop no-hopers (e.g., CPGB, SLP, SWP).

If Blair can maintain discipline (by winning and winning) then so can Starmer. There are few who will become labour MPs who will want to risk any more of the buffoonery we have seen since 'Call me' Dave got in, and they may grumble about the capitalist hegemony, but largely in private.

I hope

 

[WATFORD zero]

Hi mate.

Because while the remnants of Momentum have been ousted from the shadow cabinet, they still push and will push popular “native” constituency backbench candidates who are pro-Momentum, because they will win their seats easily.

Until the public is adjusted to the idea of new-new Labour, there will always be the need for these types of candidates in certain constituencies. The alternative would be like putting a centre-left candidate in Mid Sussex.

With Labour being such a huge party, consensus is much harder to achieve.

As far as I remember (which is quite a long time) all political parties have always had a few loonies lurking in the shadows/backbenches and it's all the more likely in countries that operate a two party system, as these two parties therefor cover a far wider range of political opinion. When there are larger number of smaller, more politically focused parties, which tends to be seen under proportional representation more than FPTP, the parties don't have to represent such wildly differing views within a single political party.

But the only time I have ever seen these extremes come close to power is this current cabal where not only have the extreme taken over the Government completely, they have actually forced the moderates out of power and in a lot of cases, out of the party

 

[Randy McNob]

Just wow....

 

[Pevenseagull]

Just wow....

The Tory shadow cabinet would be a bit overworked.

 

[Bob!]

Just wow....

17 Conservative seats, and still Maldon elects a 'pig in a blue rosette' !!
PR is needed for my vote to mean anything.

 

[Pevenseagull]

Just wow....

22% of the votes and fewer seats than a party polling 9%? Surely time for PR?