[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...

[abc]

But only dumb and stupid in your opinion surely? This long standing thread has become an echo chamber for the anti tories. I totally get the logic of that but one reason why labour have been out of power for so long is they have also lived in an echo chamber refusing to believe that anyone could be so stupid or dumb not to agree with what they say.

 

[abc]

If they can make enough stupid people so angry that they vote Tory, they’ll get back in. I don’t think they have a chance.

Logic and poll evidence agrees with you but it think the real danger is voter apathy and too few people voting for change. To vote for change there has to be a party that is offering it (and is half electable). There is time of course, but there is little discernable difference between Tory and Labour approaches to the strikes, economy, health expenditure, defence or even immigration. Lots of political grandstanding but no policies. ‘Anyone but the tories’ works for those who were going to vote labour anyway, but the average swing voter will be thinking ‘what will the alternative do for me’. If the answer is ‘nothing new’ then they may not bother to vote and the status quo remains.

 

[Pevenseagull]

As an aside, pleasing to see an organisation (UEFA) commissioning a report into something they were involved in and then today publishing the findings identifying how they f***ed up, did wrong and then tried to cover it up by lying.

It shouldn't really be refreshing.

 

[rogersix]

Logic and poll evidence agrees with you but it think the real danger is voter apathy and too few people voting for change. To vote for change there has to be a party that is offering it (and is half electable). There is time of course, but there is little discernable difference between Tory and Labour approaches to the strikes, economy, health expenditure, defence or even immigration. Lots of political grandstanding but no policies. ‘Anyone but the tories’ works for those who were going to vote labour anyway, but the average swing voter will be thinking ‘what will the alternative do for me’. If the answer is ‘nothing new’ then they may not bother to vote and the status quo remains.

when do you think starmer should publish his manifesto?

 

[abc]

when do you think starmer should publish his manifesto?

Too early to publish a manifesto but a total vacuum of alternatives to the current mess being put forward now. The inference is that Starmer has no more idea of what to do than the gov whilst there is a massive opportunity to show that labour have a different way forward (if of course they do…..). If they can’t do that now, when will they ever?

 

[LennyTee]

I can respect someone with different political views to mine if they can provide some intelligent or considered reason or logic - but so many Right-wingers just base their views on emotions, prejudice, or simple hatred of minorities. Or they just unthinkingly accept what they are told by the Daily Mail, Daily Express and The Sun.

There was a voter in Hartlepool a couple of years ago who said they were switching from Labour to the Conservatives because "Labour want to get rid of food-banks." I reserve the right to call that voter a stupid, pig-ignorant, ****.

I have spent 6 years on social media arguing with Brexitters (the "school of hard knocks, university of life, wear-your-poppy-with-pride, bin the Liebour party" brigade - many of whom also seem to look like Phil Mitchell out of Eastenders!) - and I can assure you that the vast majority of them are as thick as mince; they are totally incapable of putting forward a coherent or half-intelligent reason for supporting Brexit. After you have pointed-out the inaccuracies of their arguments or claims, or provided counter-evidence, their final response is usually "Well f***-off and live in Brussels." Just as Tories used to respond to political opponents by aggressively suggesting that they "Emigrate to Moscow."

It seems that "tolerating opposing views" only applies when Right-wingers say something which might be viewed as controversial or offensive - must avoid 'cancel culture' - but witch-hunts and a torrent of abuse online or in the tabloids are OK if a prominent Liberal or Leftie advocates something which offends a Tory or the Daily Mail. I constantly see/hear supposedly freedom-of-speech loving Tories demanding that Gary Lineker be sacked for expressing his support for the EU, or that Chris Packham be sacked for publicly opposing fox-hunting.

Still been an arrogant, obnoxious prick I see. You lot never learn.
We are all trying to get on the same side to flush this shower of shit away but all you have is abuse for people who need convincing.
You and your type are the reason we got this shit show to start with.
Borrow GBs mirror and think about it.

 

[Guinness Boy]

See ya

Still been an arrogant, obnoxious prick I see. You lot never learn.
We are all trying to get on the same side to flush this shower of shit away but all you have is abuse for people who need convincing.
You and your type are the reason we got this shit show to start with.
Borrow GBs mirror and think about it.

 

[Machiavelli]

The majority of immigration is now from countries beyond the EU, so this is just more desperate Tory populism and distraction activity - quite apart from the fact that the ECHR is nothing to do with the EU. Still, Torygraph readers will simply see or hear the word 'European' and choke on their G&T.

The word 'populism' is a bucket (or signifier, if you're being fancy) for which all sorts of awful centrists align with everything bad and horrible with the world. Brexit: that's populism's fault. Corbyn: blame populism. Maduro: terrible populist, see where it leads you. Trump: need we say any more. Anti-populism is alive-and-well.

Populism isn't an ideology. Maybe the ideology that you might want to focus on is (ethno-)nationalism. Populism isn't exactly compatible with conservatism either, considering that the former is pitched against the establishment, whereas the latter is the establishment.

 

[Rdodge30]

Too early to publish a manifesto but a total vacuum of alternatives to the current mess being put forward now. The inference is that Starmer has no more idea of what to do than the gov whilst there is a massive opportunity to show that labour have a different way forward (if of course they do…..). If they can’t do that now, when will they ever?

Too early to publish a manifesto but a total vacuum of alternatives to the current mess being put forward now. The inference is that Starmer has no more idea of what to do than the gov whilst there is a massive opportunity to show that labour have a different way forward (if of course they do…..). If they can’t do that now, when will they ever?

The party conference in October will see the unveiling of ideas I’m not sure there will be much if anything before then.

To be honest it’s a gamble expecting to be elected by simply not being the conservatives, my view is that Starmer will have very electable policies but they will not be acceptable to the left of his own party and the second he starts to develop a manifesto that could actually get the Labour Party elected, the Labour Party will eat itself and the internal meltdown/shitshow will very soon put the polls into a tailspin. ‘‘Twas ever thus”

 

[BBassic]

The party conference in October will see the unveiling of ideas I’m not sure there will be much if anything before then.

To be honest it’s a gamble expecting to be elected by simply not being the conservatives, my view is that Starmer will have very electable policies but they will not be acceptable to the left of his own party and the second he starts to develop a manifesto that could actually get the Labour Party elected, the Labour Party will eat itself and the internal meltdown/shitshow will very soon put the polls into a tailspin. ‘‘Twas ever thus”

If he's got any sense at all he'll go, and go hard, for the younger voters.

The 18-30 year olds who have more or less only known Tory rule. The (youngest) ones who had no say in the Brexit vote but find their country crumbling because of it. The ones who have seen years and years of corruption and sleaze. The ones who can't afford a house. The ones who won't have much of a climate to enjoy if things carry on.

If they can come up with some policies (that aren't a complete fantasy) to inspire that cohort to go to the polls it could be seismic.

 

[Rdodge30]

18-24 yo’s unlikely voters

As much as the Conservative Party are responsible for the state of the country, the Labour Party are complicit in as much as they elected the unelectable Magic Grandpa as their candidate for PM.

In nearly 50 years the only electable leader they have had is Tony Blair and he seems to be universally hated by everyone within the Labour movement from what I can tell.

Sir Keir Starmer seems centralist, sensible and by any measure a good alternative to the current Government.

I still expect the Labour left to be the reason he doesn’t get elected though

 

[Gwylan]

The party conference in October will see the unveiling of ideas I’m not sure there will be much if anything before then.

To be honest it’s a gamble expecting to be elected by simply not being the conservatives, my view is that Starmer will have very electable policies but they will not be acceptable to the left of his own party and the second he starts to develop a manifesto that could actually get the Labour Party elected, the Labour Party will eat itself and the internal meltdown/shitshow will very soon put the polls into a tailspin. ‘‘Twas ever thus”

The presence of the left in the party is really overstated. People spoke about Momentum but, at its peak, this was about 10% of all Labour members, it's a lot fewer than that now. I'd be surprised if it were 5%. There are lot of Corbynites moaning but not many of them are actually party members.

I do think Starmer has to be a bit bold in his approach. I'm not sure saying that we'll be the same as the Tories, just less corrupt, is going to make a big difference.

 

[Machiavelli]

Well, I disagree fundamentally that Starmer doesn't have any policies. Miliband's energy plan is up there with Biden's Inflation Reduction Act. There are plans afoot at education, too.
I also disagree fundamentally that Starmer needs to have (m)any more policies for the next election. All he needs to do is to not rock the boat. Labour have had 20-25% leads in the polls for approaching a year now, and this year is hardly going to be a rosy one to restore confidence in the incumbents. That's without factoring in the slime left behind by Johnson, which will splurge out at times. Ditto the fracturing of Sunak's current fragile consensus which will follow on from the disastrous local elections in a few months time.
Of course that lead will reduce once the election approaches, but those thinking that the Tories will be in power after the election are living in la-la-land.

 

[Rdodge30]

Well, I disagree fundamentally that Starmer doesn't have any policies. Miliband's energy plan is up there with Biden's Inflation Reduction Act. There are plans afoot at education, too.
I also disagree fundamentally that Starmer needs to have (m)any more policies for the next election. All he needs to do is to not rock the boat. Labour have had 20-25% leads in the polls for approaching a year now, and this year is hardly going to be a rosy one to restore confidence in the incumbents. That's without factoring in the slime left behind by Johnson, which will splurge out at times. Ditto the fracturing of Sunak's current fragile consensus which will follow on from the disastrous local elections in a few months time.
Of course that lead will reduce once the election approaches, but those thinking that the Tories will be in power after the election are living in la-la-land.

He will have to have a manifesto

If that manifesto is electable, he will have to fight his own party and the unions in order to win as the political beliefs of the left of the party have always been unpalatable to the electorate. Not a shoo in by any means

 

[Javeaseagull]

18-24 yo’s unlikely voters

As much as the Conservative Party are responsible for the state of the country, the Labour Party are complicit in as much as they elected the unelectable Magic Grandpa as their candidate for PM.

In nearly 50 years the only electable leader they have had is Tony Blair and he seems to be universally hated by everyone within the Labour movement from what I can tell.

Sir Keir Starmer seems centralist, sensible and by any measure a good alternative to the current Government.

I still expect the Labour left to be the reason he doesn’t get elected though

Have you ever stopped to consider why Corbyn was unelectable? He was subjected to massive propaganda by unelected, non-tax paying Press Barons. He was slandered as a racist, anti-semitic allotment owner who rides a bicycle. The abuse was overwhelming and would have crushed anybody. Treatment reminiscent of the way Tony Benn was vilified, another one who terrified the Establishment.

Tony Blair turned out to be to the right of Margaret Thatcher so what was the point?

 

[Audax]

Have you ever stopped to consider why Corbyn was unelectable? He was subjected to massive propaganda by unelected, non-tax paying Press Barons. He was slandered as a racist, anti-semitic allotment owner who rides a bicycle. The abuse was overwhelming and would have crushed anybody. Treatment reminiscent of the way Tony Benn was vilified, another one who terrified the Establishment.

Tony Blair turned out to be to the right of Margaret Thatcher so what was the point?

IMO, it had more to do with his many years in Parliament providing said Press Barons with a whole lot of ammo to shoot him down with. I think they'll find it a lot harder to do the same to Starmer. Hence why we still see Sunak and co using the "but whatabout Corbyn...!" defense lines in PMQs so frequently.

 

[WATFORD zero]

IMO, it had more to do with his many years in Parliament providing said Press Barons with a whole lot of ammo to shoot him down with. I think they'll find it a lot harder to do the same to Starmer. Hence why we still see Sunak and co using the "but whatabout Corbyn...!" defense lines in PMQs so frequently.

But shirley no one is really desperate enough to still be using the 'whatabout Corbyn' line after the Brexit cabal's last 3 years of idiocy, complete and utter incompetence, lies and constant corruption throughout ?

18-24 yo’s unlikely voters

As much as the Conservative Party are responsible for the state of the country, the Labour Party are complicit in as much as they elected the unelectable Magic Grandpa as their candidate for PM.

In nearly 50 years the only electable leader they have had is Tony Blair and he seems to be universally hated by everyone within the Labour movement from what I can tell.

Sir Keir Starmer seems centralist, sensible and by any measure a good alternative to the current Government.

I still expect the Labour left to be the reason he doesn’t get elected though

........... Oh

 

[Rdodge30]

But shirley no one is really desperate enough to still be using the 'whatabout Corbyn' line after the Brexit cabal's last 3 years of idiocy, complete and utter incompetence, lies and constant corruption throughout ?



........... Oh

Desperate enough to be still banging on about brexit more like!!

Corbyn was unelectable, as was clear to the Labour membership when he was voted leader. His agenda was to reform the Labour Party and so he did.

Favourability 18% wasn’t it… voted against his own party over 600 times , shadow cabinet reshuffled 10/11 times , over 100 shadow ministers under his reign and inevitably a Conservative landslide against him. Absolute joke of an election from the Labour Party, so yes complicit and entirely predictable

Sir Keir Starmer a different kettle of fish altogether and is entirely electable.

Conservative Party in a shocking state and entirely unelectable

The only thing stopping the country from having a Labour Government will be the left of the Labour Party and the Unions. Starmer will have to be as strong as Blair to win and will no doubt be under more attack from his own party than from the opposition when he announces his manifesto

 

[Machiavelli]

He will have to have a manifesto

If that manifesto is electable, he will have to fight his own party and the unions in order to win as the political beliefs of the left of the party have always been unpalatable to the electorate. Not a shoo in by any means

Of course he'll have a manifesto.
I'll bet you a large sum of money that the Labour Party form the next government.

 

[Machiavelli]

Hmmm. Has someone on this thread also got, or had, other usernames?