[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...

[chickens]

opposition should be ready to form a government and have at least a notion of policy in all areas. otherwise we end up with opposing for the sake of it. on this specific policy, following the view the government are trying to stitch up oppostion to make them look like they dont have an answer, best way to shoot that fox is to have one. eitherway i'd certainly expect a grown up conversation before the election.

I see both sides of this. I can see @HWT’s point that it’s potentially counterproductive to give people plenty of time to write, hone and seed their attack lines on your new policies, so not announcing policies until election time is upon us forces the party(s) opposing you to ad-lib to a certain extent, with no guarantee of success.

However, as a voter, I damn well want to know what I’m voting for.

There’s an argument that says if you announce your policies early, they’re good policies and you stick to them, then by the time election time comes around, criticism of them will seem stale and boring, and just more sour grapes from a party that’s had thirteen years in charge and made life worse by every conceivable metric.

Starmer is clearly of a mind with @HWT’s way of thinking, and there’s nothing to say he’s wrong.

I can’t see how anyone in good conscience could vote for more of what we’ve got however.

 

[Audax]

No need to be so aggressive mate

If you’re sure there is a newer view then post it, I would be interested to read it.

Sorry, wasn't meant to be aggressive. More personal frustration - I have an intense personal dislike of out-of-context, old quotes being presented as if they're current news.

What Starmer said back then I have no doubt was true in 2016. Probably remained true throughout Corbyn's era. I'd be very surprised if it's still true. Just because they're not offering up their own policy right now doesn't mean they're still mired in 2016. The problem Labour has right now is they need to walk a tightrope between ensuring they oppose the really bad Tory policy while not alienating potential voters at the next GE. While I have no doubt that the Tory immigration policies don't have national majority support, what they do have is enough support in key local areas to tip the balance in a FPTP general election.

At the moment it feels very much like Labour are in "let the Tories sink themselves" mode and holding back on policy announcements in certain areas so as to prevent the Tories using those policy announcements for deflection. Labour's planning for a GE, they're going to hold back policy on key areas (like immigration) until proper campaigning starts.

 

[Rdodge30]

That’s a crass comparison.

It’s not my opinion it’s how politics/General Elections work. There will have to be a Labour manifesto offering solutions, if it is weak or vague it will get slaughtered. If it is strong concise and convincing they will get elected.
You can’t spend 10 years slating all Government policies and not offer an alternative on the main ones.

I thought Starmer’s “5 mission statement” recently was nowhere near good enough

This Government has drastically underperformed but simply not being Conservative will not get him elected, just my opinion though.

Do you think that things are so clear cut that Labour could be elected without a manifesto?

 

[Audax]

I see Starmer's position differently. Labour in opposition in the UK is in opposition to the current government, but is also effectively opposed by the majority of owners of media outlets. Starmer's reticence on this and a lot of other issues reflects that his present job is not to promote debate, but to get himself elected. To do this, he believes that he is better advised to focus attention on the faults of the government, than to propose alternatives that he is currently powerless to implement. Doing the latter would just encourage his opponents to focus on attacking his proposals, leaving him on the defence instead of attacking the government. This unspoken truth is why I have more patience with his seeming ineffectiveness than most on the left do. Corbyn openly went to war with the media and though his supporters loved him saying the things that they wanted to hear, he gave the media what it needed to destroy his credibility with a particular segment of working class voters. At present, the best that they can do with Starmer is say that he's boring. Given the endless supply of 'exciting' politicians that his opponents have inflicted upon us, a bit of tedious stability might be welcomed by a lot of us. I don't seem him as a good political campaigner, but as a proven sound admistrator. As you suggest, the real test of him will come if and when he is elected.

Very much agree with this. Would also add that the in the few areas where Labour have attacked by proposing alternative policy in the last 12-18 months, the Tories have simply stolen the policy and reinvented it as their own (eg windfall tax) and as a result taken the sting out of the Labour attack. I can see why Labour are holding back and I fully understand why we are unlikely to see very many major policy announcements from them until it's too late for the Tories to defuse those policies ahead of a GE.

 

[beorhthelm]

I find your position on this slightly crazy. You are essentially saying that a government (ie: the one we have now) can be utterly abject and awful, and they'll get in again if the opposition don't share very workable plans to lots of the problems, prior to the election. And yet the government that has proven for years that it is useless, will be re-elected?

you say its crazy, yet it did work the last election.

 

[Audax]

That’s a crass comparison.

It’s not my opinion it’s how politics/General Elections work. There will have to be a Labour manifesto offering solutions, if it is weak or vague it will get slaughtered. If it is strong concise and convincing they will get elected.
You can’t spend 10 years slating all Government policies and not offer an alternative on the main ones.

I thought Starmer’s “5 mission statement” recently was nowhere near good enough

This Government has drastically underperformed but simply not being Conservative will not get him elected, just my opinion though.

Do you think that things are so clear cut that Labour could be elected without a manifesto?

Labour don't need to put that manifesto out now, though. They need to put it out as late as possible while still allowing time to sell it to the voters. It's a fine balance - go to early and they give the Tories a chance to attack / counter / defuse / co-opt those policies. Too late and they won't have time to sell to the voters. In between, there's a sweet spot: get the announcements out, make them stick. That time isn't now.

What they can do now is lay the foundations for the manifesto, and that's what Starmer's 5 missions statement was about. When the manifesto does arrive, we should all expect it to be putting the flesh on that skeleton.

 

[Jim in the West]

Trust me the Tories would much rather be talking about small boats than rivers and seas full in shit, an NHS on its knees and failures of self imposed economic sanctions.

The culture war is all they have left and they have their offshore billionaire mates in the media to do their bidding and gaslighting of the population

Unfortunately this is it. I think they've worked out that there is zero chance of winning the next election if they campaign on the economy, public services, the environment, transport, even Brexit! The only way they stand a chance of avoiding annihilation is to (a) make people worried about "nasty foreigners", and (b) find a way to keep the issue in the news. If they were serious about solving the problem, they could do so relatively easily - put more resource into processing asylum applications, have constructive talks with the EU, seriously crack down on people smugglers, provide safe routes for genuine asylum-seekers, etc, etc. The government is spending very large sums of OUR money deliberately making the situation worse (eg: having to pay for tens of thousands of people to stay in hotels, because they won't properly resource the application process; doing deals with Rwanda which will not work, etc).

 

[Thunder Bolt]

English surely won't be their native language and I'm sure there will be very few cultural similarities between the UK and, say, Albania.

Family I totally accept as there will be some with family members who are settled in the UK. We prioritise those and allow them to stay, of course.

ETA posted before I had read TB's helpful and informative response.

How many Albanians are amongst the 40,000 that arrived last year? When asylum claims are processed, over 80% are granted asylum so others are deported, and have been.

In fact, the Albanian claims have been prioritised in Operation Bridora, making genuine refugees wait even longer to get the freedom to work here. Still it means the government can boast that some are being deported.

Asylum units ordered to only process Albanian cases in push to speed up deportations

Exclusive: ‘Operation Bridora’ to start on Monday despite accusations of discrimination against other nationalities who will now suffer longer waits

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Sunack's just used announced he's supporting Grimsby in the FA Cup game.

Along with a load of waffle about immigrants and Starmer being a 'lefty lawyer'. ... No "but Corbyn"'s though.

Well, Brighton isn't likely to return a Tory MP, is it?

Lefty lawyer is such a childish thing to label anyone. I worked with lawyers, and can tell you, from discussions in the office, they were a very broad range of political opinions.
Lawyers work within the law, as do judges, so there is no left, or right. The statue of justice is blindfolded, so no affiliation with politics, race, colour or creed.

 

[Jim in the West]

English surely won't be their native language and I'm sure there will be very few cultural similarities between the UK and, say, Albania.

Family I totally accept as there will be some with family members who are settled in the UK. We prioritise those and allow them to stay, of course.

ETA posted before I had read TB's helpful and informative response.

English won't be their native language - but then neither will French, German, Italian, Greek.... But the vast majority of refugees who come to the UK will have English as a second or third language, and almost certainly won't know any other European language. If they aren't coming here for family reasons, language is important - they are just thinking of the day-to-day requirements of living in another country. Exactly like a Brit considering moving abroad - most likely we would choose a country where English is widely spoken. It makes life much easier - especially getting a job.
Although culturally the UK will obviously be very different to countries like Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq, etc - citizens of such countries are much more likely to know a little about the UK (compared to, say, Greece or France)....it's partially due to the reach of the BBC, and partially a legacy of our colonial past (especially in places like Afghanistan - they even play cricket there!)

 

[nicko31]

Well, Brighton isn't likely to return a Tory MP, is it?

Lefty lawyer is such a childish thing to label anyone. I worked with lawyers, and can tell you, from discussions in the office, they were a very broad range of political opinions.
Lawyers work within the law, as do judges, so there is no left, or right. The statue of justice is blindfolded, so no affiliation with politics, race, colour or creed.

Lefty lawyer = lawyer that follows the law they don't like. Also know as Enemy of the People

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Lefty lawyer = lawyer that follows the law they don't like. Also know as Enemy of the People

The enemies of the people were the three judges who said the government had to put the vote to Parliament about Article 50. Upholding the law, is now making them an enemy.

 

[rogersix]

I understand you’re point but I disagree. It will never be solved so will never go away. As with all political problems- actually having a positive effect on solving the problem is a better vote winner than deliberately failing in order to keep the problem alive

if you can't motivate people to vote through positivity, you do it by fear and hatred,

it's all they've got

 

[rogersix]

Apart from what we already know, what is it about France / the French that asylum seekers find so unacceptable and unpalatable they they won't claim asylum there?

It's a genuine question. I really don't understand what the attraction of the UK is compared to France.

google it

 

[sparkie]

opposition should be ready to form a government and have at least a notion of policy in all areas. otherwise we end up with opposing for the sake of it. on this specific policy, following the view the government are trying to stitch up oppostion to make them look like they dont have an answer, best way to shoot that fox is to have one. eitherway i'd certainly expect a grown up conversation before the election.

22 months before the election is pushing it a bit though. Give it another 16-18 months.

 

[rogersix]

That’s a crass comparison.

It’s not my opinion it’s how politics/General Elections work. There will have to be a Labour manifesto offering solutions, if it is weak or vague it will get slaughtered. If it is strong concise and convincing they will get elected.
You can’t spend 10 years slating all Government policies and not offer an alternative on the main ones.

I thought Starmer’s “5 mission statement” recently was nowhere near good enough

This Government has drastically underperformed but simply not being Conservative will not get him elected, just my opinion though.

Do you think that things are so clear cut that Labour could be elected without a manifesto?

please could you explain your term, "drastically underperformed"? ta

 

[A1X]

The enemies of the people were the three judges who said the government had to put the vote to Parliament about Article 50. Upholding the law, is now making them an enemy.

Correction - upholding the laws they don't like is making them an enemy of the people. If they decide to enforce the laws they do like to incredibly harsh extents they seem remarkably quiet.

 

[A1X]

Brighton and Hove Albion just got a mention in PM’s questions as the Honourable member for Grimsby asked if the PM would wish Grimsby well !!

Hopefully Rishi's usual Midas touch comes into play, should be an easy 4-0 to us.

 

[A1X]

 

[jcdenton08]

Is there actually anyone who is arguing the number of boats arriving aren’t a problem? The more the merrier argument? Curious about that. Seems to be everyone across the political problem agrees there is a problem here.