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[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...



Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
I understand his employment status, but it's a moot point really. If the organistion wants a silence/neutrality clause, they would just put it into the contract of the self employed person, rather than into the T&C's of the employee. My main concern is that these clauses, under the cover of 'balance' are really just being used to try to cow any disagreement by a management that has been appointed by, and is primarily serving the interests of, the present government.

Watching Paul Whitehouse's recent documentary about river health, I was reminded that, before the privatisations of utilities happened there was a sustained period of government underfunding and political criticism of the public sector bodies that were running water, phones, rail, gas etc. Talk it down for a few years, underfund it to make sure that there are some grounds for your complaints, then suggest that private companies could do it so much better. It happened to all of them. It then happened to schools before the push for academisation. It's now happening to both the BBC and the NHS. It's obvious what the long term desire is.
I agree. The Tories take very small steps to achieve their aims, so the public excuse the little steps not looking back to see how far down the rabbit hole we've come in any direction. Boiling frog syndrome.
Another problem is that much of the public only read the headlines, and not the detail.
 




Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
@Stato

Rightly or wrongly the Rwanda policy was more popular with some groups of voters in the country than people think.

“Whilst across the population just 35 per cent support the Rwanda policy,” But for C2s [working class voters] the figure is 31 per cent oppose and 48 per cent support. Among Leave voters, it’s even starker, with 23 per cent oppose and 57 per cent support.

Yet you would think from the narrative that everyone was opposed to it.

Once Sir Keir comes up with a credible solution to illegal immigration then we will have a debate on our hands.

He knows it needs dealing with - he has said it needs dealing with. His policy seems to be to oppose with righteous indignation yet not to put forward a solution.

We will have to agree to disagree, I do not believe the Conservatives offer only solutions that they know will be overturned in Court in order to keep the problem alive in order to win votes - I do believe the immigration problem is very real, very difficult to solve and if Sir Keir has a viable solution he will be shouting it from the rooftops come Election time, pointing out how the Conservatives have failed and THAT will be a vote winner.


Only time will tell who is right, if Labour win their landslide and implement all the measures you have just accused the Conservatives of not implementing in order to solve the problem, I will applaud
Why are you putting the onus on the Opposition to come up with a solution instead of looking into the detail of the scheme yourself. The Rwanda agreement, which hasn't happened because it breaks international law, involved sending just 200 immigrants in return for a few coming the other way.
Do you think your C2s and other groups would be so keen when they knew the full extent?
 


Randy McNob

> > > > > > Cardiff > > > > >
Jun 13, 2020
4,724
More reason why we need a general election.

If Tories claim they act as the will of the people, let the people judge, if they say they represent the majority opinion, let the people decide, if they say it would be worse under labour or another government, let the people decide in an election
 


rippleman

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2011
4,977
Apart from what we already know, what is it about France / the French that asylum seekers find so unacceptable and unpalatable they they won't claim asylum there?

It's a genuine question. I really don't understand what the attraction of the UK is compared to France.
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
55,958
Faversham
they should stop keeping quiet about it, let people hear the alternatives. move the dicussion on from the present cul-de-sac.
It would be madness for labour to 'offer' any 'alternative' to the current tory plan to burn the foringers. All they should be doing now is asking how the government's latest wheeze (sorry, carefully considered strategy) is going to achieve anything. It is not the job of the opposition to publish an alternative to every gimcrack tin-pot bit of dog-whistling a failing government floats in a desperate attempt to save its sorry arse.

The time for grown up conversation will be after the next election.
 




sparkie

Well-known member
Jul 17, 2003
13,258
Hove
More reason why we need a general election.

If Tories claim they act as the will of the people, let the people judge, if they say they represent the majority opinion, let the people decide, if they say it would be worse under labour or another government, let the people decide in an election
22 months to go !
 


Rdodge30

Well-known member
Dec 30, 2022
596
Why are you putting the onus on the Opposition to come up with a solution instead of looking into the detail of the scheme yourself. The Rwanda agreement, which hasn't happened because it breaks international law, involved sending just 200 immigrants in return for a few coming the other way.
Do you think your C2s and other groups would be so keen when they knew the full extent?
They’re not my C2s

For me the onus is on the opposition because if they are to become the Government they MUST offer credible solutions and policies to solve all the political problems that face the current Government.

At the beginning of a Government’s term it is enough for the opposition to simply oppose without offering credible alternatives and solutions

As we near the end of a Government’s term, that will not be enough and as the election approaches the Government will 100% attack the opposition with:

a) What are your solutions to these problems
b) How will you fund those solutions
 


Rdodge30

Well-known member
Dec 30, 2022
596
It would be madness for labour to 'offer' any 'alternative' to the current tory plan to burn the foringers. All they should be doing now is asking how the government's latest wheeze (sorry, carefully considered strategy) is going to achieve anything. It is not the job of the opposition to publish an alternative to every gimcrack tin-pot bit of dog-whistling a failing government floats in a desperate attempt to save its sorry arse.

The time for grown up conversation will be after the next election.
If they do not offer credible solutions to political problems, after the next election they will still be the opposition
 




Hotchilidog

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2009
9,116
It would be madness for labour to 'offer' any 'alternative' to the current tory plan to burn the foringers. All they should be doing now is asking how the government's latest wheeze (sorry, carefully considered strategy) is going to achieve anything. It is not the job of the opposition to publish an alternative to every gimcrack tin-pot bit of dog-whistling a failing government floats in a desperate attempt to save its sorry arse.

The time for grown up conversation will be after the next election.
I genuinely hope that is not wishful thinking, but listening to Yvette Cooper doing the rounds today it looks like the Labour Party will be dusting off the 2015 Controls on Immigration mugs for the next election campaign. Just focusing on the workability of the scheme without addressing the moral vacuum that lies behind it is weak, and they should be embarrassed.

I can only hope the huge majority they will be gifted by this wretched government will also deliver a moral compass and a backbone to go with it.
 


A1X

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Sep 1, 2017
20,506
Deepest, darkest Sussex
Apart from what we already know, what is it about France / the French that asylum seekers find so unacceptable and unpalatable they they won't claim asylum there?

It's a genuine question. I really don't understand what the attraction of the UK is compared to France.
Language, family and culture will be huge parts of it.
 


hart's shirt

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2003
11,070
Kitbag in Dubai
The Albion getting a rare mention in today's PMQs.

Tory MP for Great Grimsby Lia Nici's question regarding Grimsby which referenced the beating of Sunak's Southampton.
 




Rdodge30

Well-known member
Dec 30, 2022
596
Brighton and Hove Albion just got a mention in PM’s questions as the Honourable member for Grimsby asked if the PM would wish Grimsby well !!
 


beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
36,003
It would be madness for labour to 'offer' any 'alternative' to the current tory plan to burn the foringers. All they should be doing now is asking how the government's latest wheeze (sorry, carefully considered strategy) is going to achieve anything. It is not the job of the opposition to publish an alternative to every gimcrack tin-pot bit of dog-whistling a failing government floats in a desperate attempt to save its sorry arse.

The time for grown up conversation will be after the next election.
opposition should be ready to form a government and have at least a notion of policy in all areas. otherwise we end up with opposing for the sake of it. on this specific policy, following the view the government are trying to stitch up oppostion to make them look like they dont have an answer, best way to shoot that fox is to have one. eitherway i'd certainly expect a grown up conversation before the election.
 


Stato

Well-known member
Dec 21, 2011
7,355
@Stato

Rightly or wrongly the Rwanda policy was more popular with some groups of voters in the country than people think.

“Whilst across the population just 35 per cent support the Rwanda policy,” But for C2s [working class voters] the figure is 31 per cent oppose and 48 per cent support. Among Leave voters, it’s even starker, with 23 per cent oppose and 57 per cent support.

Yet you would think from the narrative that everyone was opposed to it.

Once Sir Keir comes up with a credible solution to illegal immigration then we will have a debate on our hands.

He knows it needs dealing with - he has said it needs dealing with. His policy seems to be to oppose with righteous indignation yet not to put forward a solution.

We will have to agree to disagree, I do not believe the Conservatives offer only solutions that they know will be overturned in Court in order to keep the problem alive in order to win votes - I do believe the immigration problem is very real, very difficult to solve and if Sir Keir has a viable solution he will be shouting it from the rooftops come Election time, pointing out how the Conservatives have failed and THAT will be a vote winner.


Only time will tell who is right, if Labour win their landslide and implement all the measures you have just accused the Conservatives of not implementing in order to solve the problem, I will applaud
Your first point explains why I disagree with your second. They were elected by winning seats in working class areas. They did this by focusing on the EU and immigration as the major problems for those communities. The real reasons they are not thriving are far more to do with the underinvestment and demise of manufacturing industry. They cannot / will not do anything to respond to those challenges because the potential solutions are either too expensive, or too Keynesian to fit their free market ideology. In those circumstances, they can't admit their impotency, so they need a convincing alternative explanation. Putting the blame on 'others' is a long established tactic of right wing populist politicians. Proposing seemingly simple solutions to very complex problems is another.

I see Starmer's position differently. Labour in opposition in the UK is in opposition to the current government, but is also effectively opposed by the majority of owners of media outlets. Starmer's reticence on this and a lot of other issues reflects that his present job is not to promote debate, but to get himself elected. To do this, he believes that he is better advised to focus attention on the faults of the government, than to propose alternatives that he is currently powerless to implement. Doing the latter would just encourage his opponents to focus on attacking his proposals, leaving him on the defence instead of attacking the government. This unspoken truth is why I have more patience with his seeming ineffectiveness than most on the left do. Corbyn openly went to war with the media and though his supporters loved him saying the things that they wanted to hear, he gave the media what it needed to destroy his credibility with a particular segment of working class voters. At present, the best that they can do with Starmer is say that he's boring. Given the endless supply of 'exciting' politicians that his opponents have inflicted upon us, a bit of tedious stability might be welcomed by a lot of us. I don't seem him as a good political campaigner, but as a proven sound admistrator. As you suggest, the real test of him will come if and when he is elected.
 




Eric the meek

Fiveways Wilf
NSC Patron
Aug 24, 2020
7,057
I've just seen the claim by Sunak 'stopping the boats is a priority for the British people' pop up on my laptop.

Is it? It isn't a priority for this British person. Neither have I been asked what my priorities are. Has anyone else been asked what their priorities are?
 


Jul 20, 2003
20,661
Sunack's just used announced he's supporting Grimsby in the FA Cup game.

Along with a load of waffle about immigrants and Starmer being a 'lefty lawyer'. ... No "but Corbyn"'s though.
 
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Javeaseagull

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Feb 22, 2014
2,806
Apart from what we already know, what is it about France / the French that asylum seekers find so unacceptable and unpalatable they they won't claim asylum there?

It's a genuine question. I really don't understand what the attraction of the UK is compared to France.
I can only think that it is because it is common knowledge that if you can get to the UK you get a house, car and money to live on without having to work. Everyone knows that. It is regularly in the Daily Mail etc.
 


Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
Apart from what we already know, what is it about France / the French that asylum seekers find so unacceptable and unpalatable they they won't claim asylum there?

It's a genuine question. I really don't understand what the attraction of the UK is compared to France.
Several reasons. France and other European countries take in more numbers of refugees than Britain, already, so comparatively speaking Britain takes in a miniscule number. See the chart. *

A lot of asylum seekers and refugees can already speak English which is a great advantage over other countries. The perils of having been a global power in the past.

Many of them already have family here. There was the case of a teenager in the camp at Manston, who wanted to ring his sister, and had his phone removed from him. She knew he had arrived and was trying to contact him.

Many Afghans were promised protection when the British withdrew from Kabul, but were abandoned. Look at this story of young Afghan men taken to London to be disbursed around the country and were abandoned. What did they do? Abscond, as many right wingers would allege? No, they went to the police to ask where they should go.

Refugees in Europe..jpg
 




rippleman

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2011
4,977
Language, family and culture will be huge parts of it.
English surely won't be their native language and I'm sure there will be very few cultural similarities between the UK and, say, Albania.

Family I totally accept as there will be some with family members who are settled in the UK. We prioritise those and allow them to stay, of course.

ETA posted before I had read TB's helpful and informative response.
 


FatSuperman

Well-known member
Feb 25, 2016
2,919
If they do not offer credible solutions to political problems, after the next election they will still be the opposition
I find your position on this slightly crazy. You are essentially saying that a government (ie: the one we have now) can be utterly abject and awful, and they'll get in again if the opposition don't share very workable plans to lots of the problems, prior to the election. And yet the government that has proven for years that it is useless, will be re-elected?

"Your honour, I appreciate that as a teacher, I shouldn't be exposing myself to the students. But surely it is the responsibility of my potential replacement to prove that he isn't a pervert? Until then, I should remain in my position and continue to be a despicable human. I rest my case"
 


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