And when the whole world wants them at the same time? That has an impact.
You are again forgetting people screaming to buy at any costs.
Bit late now to complain about the cost of covid and the fall out.
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[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...
- Thread starter TomandJerry
- Start date
And when the whole world wants them at the same time? That has an impact.
You are again forgetting people screaming to buy at any costs.
Bit late now to complain about the cost of covid and the fall out.
It's not that hard to understand. I'm neither an economics nor maths graduate but I understand the taxes that apply to me. I might be wrong but it seems to me you may just resent paying a higher rate of tax than people than earn a lot less than you! Where I do agree is that this can't be resolved on NSC simply because it doesn't have any influence in the governments fiscal policy!!!
So are you saying that at a time of international crisis, normal economic rules apply re supply and demand and that justifies companies increasing their profit margins?
Private companies can charge what they like if people are willing to pay for it.
Covid was about making as much money as possible for some companies and individuals
Can’t blame them if they did it within the rules.
- Jul 10, 2003
- 27,772
Or indeed, setting up companies with no history or experience in the sector and then pushing the deals through the 'Government Fast track program' set up specifically to allow Ministers, MPs and officials to bypass all the normal rules governing suppliers.
They could then, as you rightly say, make as much profit, as quickly as possible, from a unique mix of taxpayer funding, a humanitarian crisis and their friends and associates in Government.
And I assume when you say 'if people are willing to pay for it' you mean 'If Ministers are happy to sign off their preferred deals' ?
All completely within the quickly set up rules, obviously
Interesting use of words. You say 'willing' rather than 'forced'!
Yes you are wrong. I have explained my position previously. I don't do resentment (of any sort) and I wouldn't mind if I had to pay more in income tax. It is the bollocks mad system that annoys me. It disincentivises people, especially those on low incomes, part time workers and people on benefits, who may calculate (understandably) it best to work less or do fewer hours to keep their income below a threshold where they would have to pay tax (some, or more) and/or lose benefits. It isn't just the existence of tax bands, it is the NI, the exemptions, and all the rules about benefits that get my goat.
From this, we get expressions like "playing the benefits game" and "it's not worth me doing the extra hours as it will all go in tax".
So what do we have? The tories, the party of lower taxes (in peoples' minds) who give the impression they are helping 'ordinary men and women' by reducing income tax for target voters (sorry, target deserving overtaxed hard working people) then taking it back again in NI or VAT or via reduced benefits. The whole system for the poorer members of society is a joke. I have explained all this in previous posts. I accept that there may be ways of arguing that tax bands are fair, but it depends how you define 'fair'. And I accept Machiavelli's argument that VAT is an unfair tax because 10p VAT on £1 worth of spuds hurst the poor more than it hurts the rich. But all this is very complicated for many (even if it is simple for you, in your situation). I think it is needlessly complicated - the need being that if we have a complex tax and benefits system it can be gamed for votes!
That's why the stupid people contingent among those on low incomes see 'tory tax cuts' and every other party with some nuanced different proposal as reason to vote tory. Or, indeed, vote labour of they favour payimg more tax to help out those who are more poor (my rather odd viewpoint, by and large).
I am also frankly astonished that people appear to be happy that every pound they earn over around £60K is taxed at a higher rate. To be fair, even I'm not bothered. That's so weird, isn't it? People are odd, myself included.
Equally, I'm astonished that tory politicians (the leaders at least) are happy to continue with the 4 bands of income tax take. Either it is a socialist measure or it isn't, surely? If it's socialist how can tories support it? Johnson called labour 'the party of higher taxes' repeating a mantra dating back to my childhood. Truth or lie - or irrelevant?
I just think our tax and benefits system is stupid and open to Orwellian mirepresentation and jiggery pokery. 'Vote for us and we will take more of your income into a lower tax band meaning the average family will be a thousand pounds a year better off! And we have had another great Victory in the war with Eastasia! Long live airstrip one!"
So, no, I don't resent poor people who are struggling, and may be on benefits, paying less tax than me (in % terms). That's not what bemuses me. Au contraire I'd like to see an increase in mimimum wage, and at the other end of the spectrum, simpler definitions of income that would prevent the Lord Vestys of this world offsetting their personal income and wealth against tax deductable company 'investment'. This also means removing the blurred lines over who owns what.
I am involved with an invention and a small company, and the amount of limbo dancing that is being done at the moment to ensure the newco is not 'valued' by HMG until we have come to market is extraordinary. One false move and I could get a tax bill that would wipe me out. Meanwhile in my other life I plod along in PAYE with neither the time nor skills nor inclination to optimise my finances (albeit I am going to have to do so very soon for a range of reasons, or I will be actively neglecting the security of my family when I pop my clogs, and I didn't get where I am today by actively neglecting the security of my family).
There is a great deal of radical and fair things that could be done about income tax in my view, but much of it is socialist (and perhaps even communist) whereas other things I favour in the wider piece may be labeled as free market . . . I don't like labels (and hate it when I use them myself - which I do far too regularly).
The think I hate most of all is that the tories and, in inescapable response, labour play around with tax in order to con the public into voting for them. I have got better and worse off to a range of different extents over my life and on no occasion was either gain or loss attributable to a 'tax cut' or whatever the opposite is called - 'hike' I would imagine in this increasingly Americanized society.
Have a nice day.
Or indeed, setting up companies with no history or experience in the sector and then pushing the deals through the 'Government Fast track program' set up specifically to allow Ministers, MPs and officials to bypass all the normal rules governing suppliers.
They could then, as you rightly say, make as much profit, as quickly as possible, from a unique mix of taxpayer funding, a humanitarian crisis and their friends and associates in Government.
And I assume when you say 'if people are willing to pay for it' you mean 'If Ministers are happy to sign off their preferred deals' ?
All completely within the quickly set up rules, obviously
This. If Gerbils thinks the orgy of public spending, on useless shite that was approved 'legally' without tender due to the emergency situation, that ended up in the pockets of pals and tory backers was right and proper . . . . (we have seen how the Johnson gang used the law and the language of law to turn lies into truth, with such dishonour that eventually the very people who benefitted most from his chutzpah, his own MPs threw him out on his arse) then Gerbils is mistaken.
(I just edited the last word as the original was rude.)
- Jun 20, 2021
- 3,876
I think much of what you say makes a lot of sense.Yes you are wrong. I have explained my position previously. I don't do resentment (of any sort) and I wouldn't mind if I had to pay more in income tax. It is the bollocks mad system that annoys me. It disincentivises people, especially those on low incomes, part time workers and people on benefits, who may calculate (understandably) it best to work less or do fewer hours to keep their income below a threshold where they would have to pay tax (some, or more) and/or lose benefits. It isn't just the existence of tax bands, it is the NI, the exemptions, and all the rules about benefits that get my goat.
From this, we get expressions like "playing the benefits game" and "it's not worth me doing the extra hours as it will all go in tax".
So what do we have? The tories, the party of lower taxes (in peoples' minds) who give the impression they are helping 'ordinary men and women' by reducing income tax for target voters (sorry, target deserving overtaxed hard working people) then taking it back again in NI or VAT or via reduced benefits. The whole system for the poorer members of society is a joke. I have explained all this in previous posts. I accept that there may be ways of arguing that tax bands are fair, but it depends how you define 'fair'. And I accept Machiavelli's argument that VAT is an unfair tax because 10p VAT on £1 worth of spuds hurst the poor more than it hurts the rich. But all this is very complicated for many (even if it is simple for you, in your situation). I think it is needlessly complicated - the need being that if we have a complex tax and benefits system it can be gamed for votes!
That's why the stupid people contingent among those on low incomes see 'tory tax cuts' and every other party with some nuanced different proposal as reason to vote tory. Or, indeed, vote labour of they favour payimg more tax to help out those who are more poor (my rather odd viewpoint, by and large).
I am also frankly astonished that people appear to be happy that every pound they earn over around £60K is taxed at a higher rate. To be fair, even I'm not bothered. That's so weird, isn't it? People are odd, myself included.
Equally, I'm astonished that tory politicians (the leaders at least) are happy to continue with the 4 bands of income tax take. Either it is a socialist measure or it isn't, surely? If it's socialist how can tories support it? Johnson called labour 'the party of higher taxes' repeating a mantra dating back to my childhood. Truth or lie - or irrelevant?
I just think our tax and benefits system is stupid and open to Orwellian mirepresentation and jiggery pokery. 'Vote for us and we will take more of your income into a lower tax band meaning the average family will be a thousand pounds a year better off! And we have had another great Victory in the war with Eastasia! Long live airstrip one!"
So, no, I don't resent poor people who are struggling, and may be on benefits, paying less tax than me (in % terms). That's not what bemuses me. Au contraire I'd like to see an increase in mimimum wage, and at the other end of the spectrum, simpler definitions of income that would prevent the Lord Vestys of this world offsetting their personal income and wealth against tax deductable company 'investment'. This also means removing the blurred lines over who owns what.
I am involved with an invention and a small company, and the amount of limbo dancing that is being done at the moment to ensure the newco is not 'valued' by HMG until we have come to market is extraordinary. One false move and I could get a tax bill that would wipe me out. Meanwhile in my other life I plod along in PAYE with neither the time nor skills nor inclination to optimise my finances (albeit I am going to have to do so very soon for a range of reasons, or I will be actively neglecting the security of my family when I pop my clogs, and I didn't get where I am today by actively neglecting the security of my family).
There is a great deal of radical and fair things that could be done about income tax in my view, but much of it is socialist (and perhaps even communist) whereas other things I favour in the wider piece may be labeled as free market . . . I don't like labels (and hate it when I use them myself - which I do far too regularly).
The think I hate most of all is that the tories and, in inescapable response, labour play around with tax in order to con the public into voting for them. I have got better and worse off to a range of different extents over my life and on no occasion was either gain or loss attributable to a 'tax cut' or whatever the opposite is called - 'hike' I would imagine in this increasingly Americanized society.
Have a nice day.
It is very much the old joke about the driver lost on the countryside who sees a farmer and asks how to get to London. "If I were you, I wouldn't start from here" comes the reply.
The problem with the tax and benefits system is now it is so convoluted that really sorting it out is beyond the politicians. And the same goes for the education system and the health system and the transport system and the energy system in this country.
The tax system is totally unfair to the poorest in society, but also increasingly the so called squeezed middle. Ultimately a system which taxes both income and consumption is counterproductive.nand inequitable. You should tax one or the other or alternatively for followers of Piketty, tax wealth.
In case you were wondering, this is an example of the media ecosystem in which those who are being asked to choose our new PM exist, and why the race has been so utterly detached from reality
[tweet]1558687925386285056[/tweet]
[tweet]1558687925386285056[/tweet]
nicko31
Well-known member
Ooh it’s a corner
Well-known member
Tbf I didn’t think it was as much as that
This makes me angry at the mad bint;
Leaked audio reveals Liz Truss said British workers needed ‘more graft’
Exclusive: Tory leadership frontrunner suggested Britons lacked ‘skill and application’, in echo of ‘idlers’ row
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-truss-said-british-workers-needed-more-graft
Labour need to jump on this and make sure it gets a lot of air time until the next GE. Mainly because she says;
It’s like with Brexit. People like to blame foreigners for all the problems but it’s a graft issue with British workers..
That needs drawing a lot of attention to, especially if she becomes PM because she has just alienated a huge swathe of Tory voters.
Leaked audio reveals Liz Truss said British workers needed ‘more graft’
Exclusive: Tory leadership frontrunner suggested Britons lacked ‘skill and application’, in echo of ‘idlers’ row
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-truss-said-british-workers-needed-more-graft
Labour need to jump on this and make sure it gets a lot of air time until the next GE. Mainly because she says;
It’s like with Brexit. People like to blame foreigners for all the problems but it’s a graft issue with British workers..
That needs drawing a lot of attention to, especially if she becomes PM because she has just alienated a huge swathe of Tory voters.
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The Tories hold us all in contempt. Is it any surprise?
R. Slicker
Well-known member
- Jan 1, 2009
- 4,490
I can't believe Carrie made him carry a bag.
- Jul 10, 2003
- 27,772
Truss, Kwarteng, Patel and Rabbs great literary work 'Britannia unchained' 10 years ago
The British are among the worst idlers in the world. We work among the lowest hours, we retire early and our productivity is poor.
And ten years later it's exactly the same
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britannia_Unchained
I can't believe anybody could really be surprised 10 years on by what she wants. Obviously those that are suffering from an ever increasing cost of living, raging inflation, a shrinking GDP and falling wages deserve what they have got
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Nice of the nanny to carry Boris down the steps.
Poor Nanny has to carry three bags and a child.
bobby baxter
Well-known member
- Jan 31, 2014
- 719
Truss, Kwarteng, Patel and Rabbs great literary work 'Britannia unchained' 10 years ago
The British are among the worst idlers in the world. We work among the lowest hours, we retire early and our productivity is poor.
And ten years later it's exactly the same
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britannia_Unchained
I can't believe anybody could really be surprised 10 years on by what she wants. Obviously those that are suffering from an ever increasing cost of living, raging inflation, a shrinking GDP and falling wages deserve what they have got
I imagine that when Britannia Unchained was written Kwarteng, Raab and Truss never imagined any of them would ever hold senior government positions, they were just three voices on the right of the Tory Party putting forward their case.
There is also film of Raab on a political TV show stating that the care of the disabled was too expensive and should not be the responsibility of the NHS.
Camerons call for U Kippers to come home to the Tories resulted in the party swinging even more to the right.
Machiavelli
Well-known member
Liz for Leadership talks Britain* down.
* well, its workers who also constitute the majority of the electorate, and not the pensioners that will put her into office.