Top level football is embarrassing

[Man of Harveys]

Let's try to get inside the minds of our players then shall we Les :

"f*** Me, This is a World Cup Quarter final. You get 3 shots maximum at this in your career, some don't even get that. I'm buggered if I'm gonna let that Swedish Statue over there screw it up for me with this crappy system we're playing. I'm going to do everything in my power to influence this game and possibly define my whole career with my performance. After all, I'm a World Class footballer and I'm surrounded by World Class teammates. If I give my all, we can't possibly fail"

I can't be sure but I think that's what Owen Hargreaves was thinking, it certainly looked that way. Anyone else ?

Isn't this apparently EXACTLY what the French team - which did fairly OK at the world cup, I'd say- was like? The manager is always more of a side-issue when the players are good enough, especially when it's a "golden generation" we're talking about...

 

[Gwylan]

However, whether it is or isn't doesn't disguise the fact that England at this tournament had a collection of very good players, the best collection, I would think, since 1990 ...

But the point I keep making is that just isn't true: we just believe the hype.

The nucleus of the side is pretty much the same one that failed to qualify for the QFs of the Euro championship in 2000 and failed abjectly against Germany in the last game at Wembley and against the might of Finland in the last game before Sven took over.

In fact, you could say that it was the players then were better: Shearer was around, Owen hadn't been crocked and we had a better goalkeeper. I remember watching that Germany game and recall a team who looked clueless against a pretty mediocre German team but if you think that was a team of world-beaters ruined by Sven, then, fair enough, that's your opinion.

Personally, I just don't buy this world-class team ruined by Sven. We had one player in the FIFA WC squad (and I thought Terry was lucky to get in), I didn't see any outstanding individuals suffocated by negative tactics. And I certainly don't think that our vaunted midfielders are fit to be mentioned in the same breath as Pirlo, Zidane, Ballack, Riquelme and Maniche.

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

But the point I keep making is that just isn't true: we just believe the hype.

The nucleus of the side is pretty much the same one that failed to qualify for the QFs of the Euro championship in 2000 and failed abjectly against Germany in the last game at Wembley and against the might of Finland in the last game before Sven took over.

In fact, you could say that it was the players then were better: Shearer was around, Owen hadn't been crocked and we had a better goalkeeper. I remember watching that Germany game and recall a team who looked clueless against a pretty mediocre German team but if you think that was a team of world-beaters ruined by Sven, then, fair enough, that's your opinion.

Personally, I just don't buy this world-class team ruined by Sven. We had one player in the FIFA WC squad (and I thought Terry was lucky to get in), I didn't see any outstanding individuals suffocated by negative tactics. And I certainly don't think that our vaunted midfielders are fit to be mentioned in the same breath as Pirlo, Zidane, Ballack, Riquelme and Maniche.

1) The nucleus of the side isn't anywhere near 'pretty much the same' as the 2000 one. In 2000 the team was:
Seaman, G.Neville, Keown, Campbell, P.Neville, Beckham, McManaman, Ince, Scholes, Shearer, Owen.

That is not as good a team as the one we took to Germany. Plus, it was managed by Kevin Keegan, a man who admitted on television that he wasn't good enough to manage at international level.

2) We only had one player in the FIFA WC squad because...we didn't play very well. That's beyond dispute.

3) Gerrard, Lampard and Beckham have earnt the right to be mentioned in the same breath as Pirlo, Ballack et al by at different times being voted one of the top 3 players in the world. Individually they might not have the same technical ability but they certainly possess the ability to change a game-witness Man utd winning the champions league from two crosses by Beckham, witness Steven Gerrard inspiring the second half comeback that saw Liverpool come from 3-0down at half time against AC Milan to win the Champions league.

Zidane is a class apart from pretty much every other player with the exception of perhaps Ronaldinho.

I stand by my belief that England took a very decent group of players to Germany. That they failed to perform to the sum of their parts can be blamed on numerous factors, the largest of which, I believe, is poor management.

How good the premier league is in comparison to the other major European leagues is neither here nor there IMO.

 

[Les Biehn]

1) The nucleus of the side isn't anywhere near 'pretty much the same' as the 2000 one. In 2000 the team was:
Seaman, G.Neville, Keown, Campbell, P.Neville, Beckham, McManaman, Ince, Scholes, Shearer, Owen.

That is not as good a team as the one we took to Germany. Plus, it was managed by Kevin Keegan, a man who admitted on television that he wasn't good enough to manage at international level.

2) We only had one player in the FIFA WC squad because...we didn't play very well. That's beyond dispute.

3) Gerrard, Lampard and Beckham have earnt the right to be mentioned in the same breath as Pirlo, Ballack et al by at different times being voted one of the top 3 players in the world. Individually they might not have the same technical ability but they certainly possess the ability to change a game-witness Man utd winning the champions league from two crosses by Beckham, witness Steven Gerrard inspiring the second half comeback that saw Liverpool come from 3-0down at half time against AC Milan to win the Champions league.

Zidane is a class apart from pretty much every other player with the exception of perhaps Ronaldinho.

I stand by my belief that England took a very decent group of players to Germany. That they failed to perform to the sum of their parts can be blamed on numerous factors, the largest of which, I believe, is poor management.

How good the premier league is in comparison to the other major European leagues is neither here nor there IMO.

That is a f***ing excellent post.

 

[Easy 10]

GNLF speaks the truth.
You would all do well to listen.

 

[Basil Fawlty]

I totally agree.

 

[Lawro's Lip]

Watching the World Cup, overpaid primadonnas seving up few genuinely exciting matches and all the shortcomings of the England team has made me really look forward to the coming season.

I thought my taste for football would be jaded after 4 weeks of wall to wall World Cup. But no......... Bring on the Albion and REAL Football.

 

[Sid James]

I know the strength of feeling against Sven is strong and in some cases with good reason. That said, I REALLY hope that this 'golden generation' are placing their own performances in Germany under a touch more scrutiny than you lot.

To repeat, how is it that Hargreaves is the only English player to enhance his reputation at the tournament ? Could it be that he was actually prepared to take RESPONSIBILITY for his performance, rather than go through the motions whilst pondering what juicy stuff to feed the ghost writer of his lucrative World Cup diary.

Right now it would seem that the 'golden generation' just might be a triumph of style over substance.

That is not to exonerate Sven who was good but just not good enough.

 

[Easy 10]

Other than Hargreaves, I don't think anyone came away from the World Cup with any credit. Its not exclusively Svens fault that we were utter cack, of course the players have some responsibility in all this. But I firmly believe he was the single MAJOR factor in our abject failure, because all the warning signs have been there for years. All the blindingly obvious old problems came home to roost once again, and he even managed to create some brand new ones with his astonishing squad selection. The whole campaign was a complete disaster waiting to happen - and its not just through the benefit of hindsight we can say that. We all KNEW it was extremely likely to go tits up in a big way.

We went to the World Cup playing a 4-4-2 system that we already KNEW from bitter experience that it fails to get the best from our key players, particularly central midfield, and that this always ends up getting exposed by the beter teams.

Then because of injury and a crippling lack of options up front, we were forced into changing to another system that had barely been tried or worked on at all either in the last 3 or 4 years, or even in the run-up to the tournament

We stumbled on with our disjointed, ineffective performances with NO guidance or inspiration from the coach. Once again, underperforming players ("stars") were left on the pitch to continue to screw things up, and the team performance was dragged down the toilet with them.

Sven and the players can all talk a good game, but the fact is, England ended up as the laughing stock of the tournament. After all the talk of us being oner of the teams who could win it, we were exposed as a shambles of a squad with absolutely no pattern of play, and a complete inability to impose ourselves on the opposition - and as usual, the first semi-decent opposition we face (Sweden/Portugal), we fail miserably against.

We need someone to get hold of that squad, kick some cossetted arses, dent some egos, put together an effective system and galvanise those talented players into a TEAM. Unfortunately I'm far from convnced that McLarens the man to do that, but we can only hope that he has at least learned something from his predecessors mistakes.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Other than Hargreaves, I don't think anyone came away from the World Cup with any credit. Its not exclusively Svens fault that we were utter cack, of course the players have some responsibility in all this. But I firmly believe he was the single MAJOR factor in our abject failure, because all the warning signs have been there for years. All the blindingly obvious old problems came home to roost once again, and he even managed to create some brand new ones with his astonishing squad selection. The whole campaign was a complete disaster waiting to happen - and its not just through the benefit of hindsight we can say that. We all KNEW it was extremely likely to go tits up in a big way.

We went to the World Cup playing a 4-4-2 system that we already KNEW from bitter experience that it fails to get the best from our key players, particularly central midfield, and that this always ends up getting exposed by the beter teams.

Then because of injury and a crippling lack of options up front, we were forced into changing to another system that had barely been tried or worked on at all either in the last 3 or 4 years, or even in the run-up to the tournament

We stumbled on with our disjointed, ineffective performances with NO guidance or inspiration from the coach. Once again, underperforming players ("stars") were left on the pitch to continue to screw things up, and the team performance was dragged down the toilet with them.

Sven and the players can all talk a good game, but the fact is, England ended up as the laughing stock of the tournament. After all the talk of us being oner of the teams who could win it, we were exposed as a shambles of a squad with absolutely no pattern of play, and a complete inability to impose ourselves on the opposition - and as usual, the first semi-decent opposition we face (Sweden/Portugal), we fail miserably against.

We need someone to get hold of that squad, kick some cossetted arses, dent some egos, put together an effective system and galvanise those talented players into a TEAM. Unfortunately I'm far from convnced that McLarens the man to do that, but we can only hope that he has at least learned something from his predecessors mistakes.

I concur about someone needs to come in and shake the squad up.

I still think the best person to do this would be an coach from abroad who can take a fresh look at our players and pick on form and performances in an Englnad shirt not just a name.

 

[Easy 10]

I concur about someone needs to come in and shake the squad up.

I still think the best person to do this would be an coach from abroad who can take a fresh look at our players and pick on form and performances in an Englnad shirt not just a name.

I wonder if Lippi would have been interested. Has anyone ever managed two different countries to a World Cup win ? That'd be one hell of a feather to stick in yer cap.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

I wonder if Lippi would have been interested. Has anyone ever managed two different countries to a World Cup win ? That'd be one hell of a feather to stick in yer cap.

Dont think they have - its quite a new thing that major nations pick managers from different countrys.

 

[Gwylan]

1) The nucleus of the side isn't anywhere near 'pretty much the same' as the 2000 one. In 2000 the team was:
Seaman, G.Neville, Keown, Campbell, P.Neville, Beckham, McManaman, Ince, Scholes, Shearer, Owen.

Yeah, fair point. I thought that Gerrard and Ashley Cole were around for the Germany match but they didn't make their debut until 2001.

I still maintain that the squads are not dissimilar in ability though. True, the defence now is much better but the attack now is certainly weaker and we had a world-class goalie then. And players like Beckham and Owen were truly world-class in 2000, they're certainly not now. Perhaps the squad of 2006 just edges it but there's not much in it, and I really don't see it as the golden generation.

Just seen this article from the Guardian which says pretty much what I've been saying: the only trouble is, a Scotsman wrote it and you can just smell the bitterness.

http://football.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,,1819094,00.html

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

Yeah, fair point. I thought that Gerrard and Ashley Cole were around for the Germany match but they didn't make their debut until 2001.

I still maintain that the squads are not dissimilar in ability though. True, the defence now is much better but the attack now is certainly weaker and we had a world-class goalie then. And players like Beckham and Owen were truly world-class in 2000, they're certainly not now. Perhaps the squad of 2006 just edges it but there's not much in it, and I really don't see it as the golden generation.

Just seen this article from the Guardian which says pretty much what I've been saying: the only trouble is, a Scotsman wrote it and you can just smell the bitterness.

http://football.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,,1819094,00.html

I guess the intepretation of the relative merits/faults is subjective and something not all of us will agree on. For what it's worth, the Euro 200 squad was:

David Seaman, Nigel Martyn, Richard Wright,

Gary Neville, Phil Neville, Gareth Barry, Tony Adams, Gareth Southgate, Sol Campbell, Martin Keown,

Paul Ince, David Beckham, Steve McManaman, Nick Barmby, Steven Gerrard, Paul Scholes, Dennis Wise,

Robbie Fowler, Alan Shearer, Emile Heskey, Michael Owen, Kevin Phillips

not a bad squad, but I think the class of 2006 is better, or at least on paper it is.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that this England team was a shoe-in to win the W.C. I just think that this was a really good chance with a strong squad to progress and have a good tournament. Unfortunately the only time we put together anything like a performance was against Portugal, once we were down to 10 men and all but out of it. At that stage the players seemed to get pissed off and finally said 'bollocks to it', threw off the shackles and actually had a proper go at it.

I don't agree with this being a 'golden' generation and I'm not sure where that's come from(I havent lived in England for nearly 3 years so I haven't had ready acess to our hyperbolic press). I do think it was a very good squad with decent options all over the pitch. Even upfront wouldn't have been too bad if owen and rooney were both properly match fit.

I'm just disappointed that this team didn't match up to the sum of it's parts, and for that, amongst others, I blame the management.

 

[Les Biehn]

I guess the intepretation of the relative merits/faults is subjective and something not all of us will agree on. For what it's worth, the Euro 200 squad was:

David Seaman, Nigel Martyn, Richard Wright,

Gary Neville, Phil Neville, Gareth Barry, Tony Adams, Gareth Southgate, Sol Campbell, Martin Keown,

Paul Ince, David Beckham, Steve McManaman, Nick Barmby, Steven Gerrard, Paul Scholes, Dennis Wise,

Robbie Fowler, Alan Shearer, Emile Heskey, Michael Owen, Kevin Phillips

not a bad squad, but I think the class of 2006 is better, or at least on paper it is.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that this England team was a shoe-in to win the W.C. I just think that this was a really good chance with a strong squad to progress and have a good tournament. Unfortunately the only time we put together anything like a performance was against Portugal, once we were down to 10 men and all but out of it. At that stage the players seemed to get pissed off and finally said 'bollocks to it', threw off the shackles and actually had a proper go at it.

I don't agree with this being a 'golden' generation and I'm not sure where that's come from(I havent lived in England for nearly 3 years so I haven't had ready acess to our hyperbolic press). I do think it was a very good squad with decent options all over the pitch. Even upfront wouldn't have been too bad if owen and rooney were both properly match fit.

I'm just disappointed that this team didn't match up to the sum of it's parts, and for that, amongst others, I blame the management.

Jesus, it takes someone who hasn't been in the country for 3 years to say it how it is. This is the post I would like to do if I wasn't such a lazy f***. GNLF clearly has a big chinchin.

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

Jesus, it takes someone who hasn't been in the country for 3 years to say it how it is. This is the post I would like to do if I wasn't such a lazy f***. GNLF clearly has a big chinchin.

So big, in fact, that top level Japanese linguists and politicians are discussing whether to change the word to chinchinchin.