Top level football is embarrassing

[Les Biehn]

I don't think either of those statements is true. The winner of the WC was in doubt right until the end; the season hasn't kicked off yet but we all know who's going to win the Premiership. To be really entertaining there must be an element of uncertainty.

I can't see any of the top 4 Prem sides getting near Italy. We've had 14 years of Premiership football and only twice have sides won the Champions League (and both of those were slightly flukey). The Premier League is a rich league but not a great one: there is a difference.

I think Kinky kind of has a point in that the best Prem sides would probably beat Italy, because they have the best players from around the world (not just one country) commonsense dictates the Prem sides will be better.

I think the Prem is probably more entertaining to watch but only because there are more games (more chance of an entertaining match) and because in cup competitions the knock out phase always means that teams tend to clam up. However for pure buzz a good WC game beats a good Prem game.

 

[Gwylan]

I think Kinky kind of has a point in that the best Prem sides would probably beat Italy, because they have the best players from around the world (not just one country) commonsense dictates the Prem sides will be better.

The fact that these 'best players in the world' are incapable of winning a European cup competition suggests the opposite to me.

 

[Les Biehn]

The fact that these 'best players in the world' are incapable of winning a European cup competition suggests the opposite to me.

That they are the worst players in the world? Did Liverpool not win the Champions League recently?

Ok, the best teams in europe would beat Italy (that would include the best English teams). Also cup competitions are always very tight and the best team does not always win.

 

[Gwylan]

That they are the worst players in the world? Did Liverpool not win the Champions League recently?

Ok, the best teams in europe would beat Italy (that would include the best English teams). Also cup competitions are always very tight and the best team does not always win.

It's true that Liverpool won the CL but, as I pointed out in my original post, they were only the second Prem team to do it. It does tend to suggest that it's not the hotshot league it likes to think it is.

Yes, there might be more grounds for saying that the best teams in Europe would beat Italy, although I would still think it was unlikely. There's a sense of pride in playing for a national team (although you wouldn't think it from watching England) that means that they often play better than the sum of their parts. Picking a team of the best players in the world doesn't mean that they're going to win everything - just ask Real Madrid.

 

[Man of Harveys]

As long as everyone, most notably Sky but also the pathetic, insulated, self-regarding, posing and preening tarts that play in the Premiership, keeps banging on about how wonderful and challenging the Premiership is, England will NEVER win the world cup. It's exactly that sort of "aren't we great, isn't our league great" drivel - which is worth precisely piss-all in a major tournament, as we've all just seen - that makes players totally arrogantly underprepared for what's really out there - other good players who play in other good (and probably more competitive) leagues. The arrogance of it defies belief. Just my HO.

 

[Les Biehn]

I don't think it was arrogance on the part of England players that saw us get knocked out of the world cup, I think it is a lack of confidence in the tactics and insecurity about their ability that saw us get knocked out. Mind you the lack of confidence in our tactics is justified as this was the other main contributing downfall to our quarter final exit.

 

[Man of Harveys]

I don't think it was arrogance on the part of England players that saw us get knocked out of the world cup, I think it is a lack of confidence in the tactics and insecurity about their ability that saw us get knocked out. Mind you the lack of confidence in our tactics is justified as this was the other main contributing downfall to our quarter final exit.

"Lack of confidence in the tactics"? That sounds very much like another way of saying basically the spoilt millionaire players thought they knew better than a (foreign) manager whom they knew everyone would blame anyway if things went wrong.
As for "insecurity about their ability"?! Are you serious?

I'm not really the most fervent of England supporters so I don't mind THAT much if Frank Lampard's a legend in his own mind and 4x4 but actually then looks a bit so-so compared to what's out there rest of the world. But that way mediocrity lies.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Personally I think its the fact we have the biggest set of overrated, media hyped players in the world that fail on the world stage time after time.

 

[Les Biehn]

"Lack of confidence in the tactics"? That sounds very much like another way of saying basically the spoilt millionaire players thought they knew better than a (foreign) manager whom they knew everyone would blame anyway if things went wrong.
As for "insecurity about their ability"?! Are you serious?

I'm not really the most fervent of England supporters so I don't mind THAT much if Frank Lampard's a legend in his own mind and 4x4 but actually then looks a bit so-so compared to what's out there rest of the world. But that way mediocrity lies.

I'm not a spoilt millionaire and neither is Easy 10 (as far as I know) and we didn't have confidence in the managers tactics. I think you just have to look at the inhibited way they play and the lack of conviction when it comes to penalties. I think the pressure from the media and the public is just as much to blame, the expectation is to high and mounts far to much pressure on the players.

 

[Sid James]

As long as everyone, most notably Sky but also the pathetic, insulated, self-regarding, posing and preening tarts that play in the Premiership, keeps banging on about how wonderful and challenging the Premiership is, England will NEVER win the world cup. It's exactly that sort of "aren't we great, isn't our league great" drivel - which is worth precisely piss-all in a major tournament, as we've all just seen - that makes players totally arrogantly underprepared for what's really out there - other good players who play in other good (and probably more competitive) leagues. The arrogance of it defies belief. Just my HO.

I think that is a fair summation of the state of the game in this country.

A large dose of humility is definitely in order at the moment.

 

[Gwylan]

I'm not a spoilt millionaire and neither is Easy 10 (as far as I know) and we didn't have confidence in the managers tactics.

But England have not reached a single final (and only one semi - when we were at home) since the Prem has been in existence - are all the previous failures Sven's fault as well?

Or is it, as MoH suggests, that the Prem is way over-hyped and is possibly the poorest league of all the major footballing countries?

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

I think that is a fair summation of the state of the game in this country.

A large dose of humility is definitely in order at the moment.

There a 6 decent sides in the Premiership at anyone time and once you get down to 7th and 8th you have sides like Charlton, where as in spain you have sides like Valencia and Depor.

 

[Les Biehn]

But England have not reached a single final (and only one semi - when we were at home) since the Prem has been in existence - are all the previous failures Sven's fault as well?

Or is it, as MoH suggests, that the Prem is way over-hyped and is possibly the poorest league of all the major footballing countries?

But are we not talking about top level football now? I think what MoH says about teh Prem is spot on but I disagree it has made our players over confident at international level, I think it has just lead to them being even more hyped at that level adding more pressure and insecurity.

Sven's tactics is another issue all together (although obviously the mental state of the players is also something that had some effect on his job but I don't want to get into debating how he dealt with that now), his tactics were poor, they didn't suit our players and this lead to players lacking confidence in the system which I felt was shown in their play.

 

[Sid James]

But are we not talking about top level football now? I think what MoH says about teh Prem is spot on but I disagree it has made our players over confident at international level, I think it has just lead to them being even more hyped at that level adding more pressure and insecurity.

Sven's tactics is another issue all together (although obviously the mental state of the players is also something that had some effect on his job but I don't want to get into debating how he dealt with that now), his tactics were poor, they didn't suit our players and this lead to players lacking confidence in the system which I felt was shown in their play.

Let's try to get inside the minds of our players then shall we Les :

"f*** Me, This is a World Cup Quarter final. You get 3 shots maximum at this in your career, some don't even get that. I'm buggered if I'm gonna let that Swedish Statue over there screw it up for me with this crappy system we're playing. I'm going to do everything in my power to influence this game and possibly define my whole career with my performance. After all, I'm a World Class footballer and I'm surrounded by World Class teammates. If I give my all, we can't possibly fail"

I can't be sure but I think that's what Owen Hargreaves was thinking, it certainly looked that way. Anyone else ?

 

[Gwylan]

But are we not talking about top level football now? I think what MoH says about teh Prem is spot on but I disagree it has made our players over confident at international level, I think it has just lead to them being even more hyped at that level adding more pressure and insecurity.

Sven's tactics is another issue all together (although obviously the mental state of the players is also something that had some effect on his job but I don't want to get into debating how he dealt with that now), his tactics were poor, they didn't suit our players and this lead to players lacking confidence in the system which I felt was shown in their play.

You're still going on about Sven and ignoring the question. I'll try again: if our Prem players are world-class and let down by a poor manager, how come we failed in the five tournaments before Sven took over (in one case not even qualifying)?

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

You're still going on about Sven and ignoring the question. I'll try again: if our Prem players are world-class and let down by a poor manager, how come we failed in the five tournaments before Sven took over (in one case not even qualifying)?

Still be Svens fault somehow.

We didnt have the worlds greatest 11 at those tourneys, which according to the media we did this time.

 

[Gwylan]

Still be Svens fault somehow.

We didnt have the worlds greatest 11 at those tourneys, which according to the media we did this time.

Well yes, I think that's the point.

The media hyped up our England out of all proportion just as they hype up the Premier League to be better than it actually is (and there's a symbiotic relationship here between a Murdoch-owned press and a Murdoch-owned TV channel, but that's not the whole story). When the team flopped, Sven was an easy scapegoat when his actual record is OK (and by England's standards pretty good).

No doubt we'll fail to progress beyond the QFs of the Euro championships and it will be MacClaren's fault then.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Well yes, I think that's the point.

The media hyped up our England out of all proportion just as they hype up the Premier League to be better than it actually is (and there's a symbiotic relationship here between a Murdoch-owned press and a Murdoch-owned TV channel, but that's not the whole story). When the team flopped, Sven was an easy scapegoat when his actual record is OK (and by England's standards pretty good).

No doubt we'll fail to progress beyond the QFs of the Euro championships and it will be MacClaren's fault then.

Not to mention we didnt lose a game at the world cup!

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

You're still going on about Sven and ignoring the question. I'll try again: if our Prem players are world-class and let down by a poor manager, how come we failed in the five tournaments before Sven took over (in one case not even qualifying)?

Because they were different players who weren't really good enough.

I'm not going to argue that the premier league is the best league in the world. I don't really care if it is or not.

However, whether it is or isn't doesn't disguise the fact that England at this tournament had a collection of very good players, the best collection, I would think, since 1990 and that they had the best chance since 1990 to make a major impact on the world cup.

I think there are numerous reasons for England's poor performances. England played 4-4-2 almost exclusively for the first four years, eleven months of Svens reign. He then started playing seemingly random formations throughout the final few weeks of his time in charge. I think this is something that would cause a little bit of confusion. It could have been easily avoided if our friendly matches had been used for experimentation rather than the meaningless handing out of caps.

I don't think there were many teams that had players who were much better than our own- Brazil and Argentina maybe, but no-one else. The difference was, some teams were able to play as a team far more effectively than us. I put that down to the management as the same players seem to have no trouble playing as a team for their club teams.

I also think Sven's negativity-or caution- as a coach hampered England. His style of play and tactics are suited for a defensive mindset, they're suited for a league like Italy's. I don't think it suits the English style of play and I think the players struggled with it. The amount of times the players banged on about how important it was to be patient was countless. However, they seemed to mistake being patient with playing very slow, unadventurous football (a la the T&T game).

 

[Les Biehn]

You're still going on about Sven and ignoring the question. I'll try again: if our Prem players are world-class and let down by a poor manager, how come we failed in the five tournaments before Sven took over (in one case not even qualifying)?

How about I will try again as your retarded self seems to struggle with the idea that we are just dealing with top flight football at the moment, as in the here and now. The reason I didn't answer the question was because it wasn't relevant to the debate, but it seems to me others have answered it.