Tonight - More4, The God Delusion

[1959]

A lot stronger than Dawkins/atheists obscene confidence that it all was just a fortunate coincidence that's for sure..

Dawkins has never claimed any such thing.

It's been ages since I read The God Delusion, but I seem to remember he is adamant that a fortunate coincidence is precisely what it is not.

Religious leaders often claim that this is the crux of his argument, despite knowing full well that it is not.

 

[bhaexpress]

Maybe your little green men are 'god'.

Could very well be but there again why is it that I have had quite a few Christians tell me that this is nonsense ? Why is it any more stupid than God, Allan, Zeus, Odin, Apollo, Buddha, Cows and so on ?

My point being that far too many people deny the possibility of the being anyone or anything than their own deity. The fact (yes, the 'F' word) is that there is no proof. Of course there's no proof that God doesn't exist but the onus is rather on those who say he/she/it does to justify this claim. I might as well say I am God if nobody wants me to prove it.

 

[Stoo82]

All I know, is the universe and everything in it is mathamaticaly perfect. Wheather that is luck or creation is mans jobs to work out.

 

[Acker79]

All of them right...because its in 'gods' name.

It depends on how you look at it.

For example: Hitler, an occultist who is often grouped as 'atheist communist' and who is quoted as not liking christianity or judaism, killed 6 million people because they were jewish. He made jews the target by blaming them for Germany's financial difficulties. Without religion there is no specific target for him.

If Hitler is an atheist you can argue that the death is the fault of the atheist, therefore 6million deaths chalked up on that side.*
If you argue that the existence of religion allowed for Hitler to create a target subset of people, then those 6million are chalked up to religion.*

(*either way, I don't want people to get the idea that I'm absolving Hitler of blame, he made the choice, he sent out the order, he created the fear of jews. But without religion, would he have been able to?)

Do you include ignorence of the bible? In medievel times few copies of the bible existed, and not many people could read them, so powerful men manipulated the people to their own ends. Do we include them?
George W Bush thought he was doing God's work when he invaded/freed Iraq, do those deaths count?


And so on. It's a contentious issues, where your own view of religion colours how you attribute the cause of the death.

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

Could very well be but there again why is it that I have had quite a few Christians tell me that this is nonsense ? Why is it any more stupid than God, Allan, Zeus, Odin, Apollo, Buddha, Cows and so on ?

.

Allan?! He sounds an eminently sensible deity.

 

[Stoo82]

Could very well be but there again why is it that I have had quite a few Christians tell me that this is nonsense ? Why is it any more stupid than God, Allan, Zeus, Odin, Apollo, Buddha, Cows and so on ?

My point being that far too many people deny the possibility of the being anyone or anything than their own deity. The fact (yes, the 'F' word) is that there is no proof. Of course there's no proof that God doesn't exist but the onus is rather on those who say he/she/it does to justify this claim. I might as well say I am God if nobody wants me to prove it.

Your last point is the most important on the thread. Science deals in fact, religion deals in faith. They are not nessaseraly oposing forces.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

yeah, the Spanish occupied S.American land for their king...who was of course, ordained by?
The protestants, have fought wars with the catholics through a large slice of history.
I cant begin to imagine the death toll, just in central Europe, never mind western Europe and Britain from wars between protestants and the holy roman empire.
Muslms against Christians. Hindu agains Islam, Jews against idolators.
All of them right...because its in 'gods' name.
and to move it on..ok...lets say its the 2nd or 3rd biggest reason for death and misery on this planet...looks good on Gods cv doesnt it.

"God" didn't make anyone kill anyone.

People kill people.

Before organised religion even existed people were killing each other.

Even if it never existed people would have killed each other.

If you want to blame anything blame the human psychi.


I've read through the new testament and it says nothing about harming other people. In fact it's the opposite.

So whatever is going on can't be laid at the feet of a text that states violence isn't the answer.

All of those wars you stated were in essence wars about control of land.

Do you realise more people died as a result of Britains conquest of its colonies than died during the Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades put together?

Perspective is a wonderful thing when applied properly.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Your last point is the most important on the thread. Science deals in fact, religion deals in faith. They are not nessaseraly oposing forces.

Science deals in theories.

Some people just choose to believe it's fact.

 

[bhaexpress]

Science deals in theories.

Some people just choose to believe it's fact.

I think you'll find there's rather a lot more fact in Science than Faith.

 

[Stoo82]

Science deals in theories.

Some people just choose to believe it's fact.

Hay, don't get me wrong. I think you know what I mean when 'I say Science deals in fact'.

Alot of science does deal in theories and we, as non-scientists, have faith that the theories are correct. Same as religion.

Like I said earlier in the thread, Science and religion are asking the same questions: Why and how are we here? Are we really alone?

 

[Stoo82]

I think you'll find there's rather a lot more fact in Science than Faith.

Fact which you take on faith.

Unless you have done the experiments.

 

[1959]

I've read through the new testament and it says nothing about harming other people. In fact it's the opposite.

Maybe......but the Old Testament has lots on that subject.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

I think you'll find there's rather a lot more fact in Science than Faith.

There is enough "human evidence" to appease some peoples definition of a "fact".

If we view the cosmos as a massive wilderness of unknowns then to suggest that what we perceive as an absolute fact does not mean that it is so.

It will be your truth on the matter, but not the absolute truth as none of us know that.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Maybe......but the Old Testament has lots on that subject.

It does. But in regards to Christianity Jesus arrival in part signaled a parting from the Old Testament and onto the New Testament.

Added there are laws laid down within it i.e the commandments which pretty much say, don't murder/kill anyone.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Hay, don't get me wrong. I think you know what I mean when 'I say Science deals in fact'.

Alot of science does deal in theories and we, as non-scientists, have faith that the theories are correct. Same as religion.

Like I said earlier in the thread, Science and religion are asking the same questions: Why and how are we here? Are we really alone?

Exactly.

it's the same part of the brain that creates a need in us all to fill in the big questions in our lives with our own "truths".

People who arent religious seem to believe that only irrational people could believe in "a God". This of course is ridiculous given some of the greatest minds the planet has seen have held a belief in a God.

My belief that something in the cosmos created a collective conscience comes from the observation that when humans are born we already have imprinted into our brains certain directive which in a way guide us to do what we need to do to survive.

Without such a directive to drive us we would have died off long ago as we wouldn't have had the drive to feed, breed and fight to survive.

Of course that is "my truth" not the "absolute truth".

 

[daveinprague]

"God" didn't make anyone kill anyone.

People kill people.

.

Im not blaming 'god'...there is no god.
although, I believe the religion preaches that man is created in gods image.
Im saying that millions of people have died 'in his name', over the millenia, and when weighed up, its a bit stupid to kill in the name of some mythical fantasy.

 

[simmo]

All I know, is the universe and everything in it is mathamaticaly perfect. Wheather that is luck or creation is mans jobs to work out.

The bible has had science contradict it on too many things for me to believe in just that one book (and all other religious books Koran etc.), however what you state is very interesting and the question is unanswered for me in respect of their being an overall creator/designer of the universe.

Why are there laws (some of those that man can understand) that seem to be uniform, eg F=MA, E=MC2 that if they didn't happen everywhere, I presume the universe wouldn't be able to exist (for example why cannot say one, just one asteroid of small mass out of the millions in the Kuiper belt of our solar system not have the gravitational pull of a star lager than the sun, thus ruining everything for us). If these laws/parameters/rules didn't exist surely there would be on an ultimate scale, no universe. Is this purely just luck? Or can we part decipher the rules of a potential creator?

 

[Stoo82]

Im not blaming 'god'...there is no god.
although, I believe the religion preaches that man is created in gods image.
Im saying that millions of people have died 'in his name', over the millenia, and when weighed up, its a bit stupid to kill in the name of some mythical fantasy.

But, like Acker (?) said, Communisum and Fasisum, athiest organisations killed 100 million last century.

By the same defintion of god/relgion killed people - so did athism and therefore athisum is bad, acording to you theory.

 

[daveinprague]

Communism and fascism have been rightly condemned.

Killing in the name of god appears to be justifiable.

The world doesnt worship communism and fascism.

but now...its Gambrinus time and I bid you all farewell..




and I still dont believe in God...

 

[1959]

Science deals in theories.

Some people just choose to believe it's fact.

True, and Dawkins argues that first point quite forcefully; that any scientific theory is always open to being disproven. Just go ahead....science is quite happy about that.

It is religion that will brook no discourse. That is, despite there being no evidence whatsoever for even the theory of a god, some people just choose to believe it's fact. That is their right to do so.

It is the demonisation of science by religious people that he has a problem with. So do I.