Christ.
[Football] To all the Southgate haters / wrong again and again and again **SOUTHGATE NOW RESIGNED**
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Christ.
BadFish
Huge Member
- Oct 19, 2003
- 18,222
I agree, I think his football is too intricate to be played by the national team without day in day out training in different formations.
If it could work then his tactical mouse would be useful but his man management has not been tested with elite players.
I too quite like him and wish him luck whenever he gets back into management.
hart's shirt
Well-known member
Seeing as England squeaked past Slovakia and Switzerland, it could be a perfect match.
Garry Nelson's Left Foot
Well-known member
What I find really strange is how many people are unwilling to give Southgate the respect he deserves or any credit at all.
No one is claiming or has ever claimed that he is a tactical genius or revolutionary.
However, he is the second most successful manager in England's history, and if he wins the final on Sunday he'll be our most successfulS so despite his tactical limitations he is clearly doing something right. Even if it's just something as simple as creating positive, inclusive, harmonious atmosphere around the squad.
Before Southgate we'd never made four quarter finals in a row. We've done that and then some.
Before Southgate we'd played in a total of three semi finals. Under Southgate we've played three semi finals in four tournaments.
Before Southgate we'd played in one final, 50 odd years previously. Under Southgate we've made two finals in four tournaments.
Before Southgate the best we could expect was a quarter final. Under Southgate that's the minimum.
Then there are the smaller accomplishments like winning penalty shoot outs, the sheer number of knockout wins( I'm not even including penalties) under him - 7 in 4 tournaments compared to 6 in the previous 25 (some of which we didn't even qualify for - another thing we don't need to worry about under the current manager), our first ever win on foreign soil against major opposition etc etc
There comes a point where you just have to say fair play he's doing something right but otherwise intelligent, rational people won't. They just keep doubling down on their criticisms even though it makes them look ridiculous.
No one is claiming or has ever claimed that he is a tactical genius or revolutionary.
However, he is the second most successful manager in England's history, and if he wins the final on Sunday he'll be our most successfulS so despite his tactical limitations he is clearly doing something right. Even if it's just something as simple as creating positive, inclusive, harmonious atmosphere around the squad.
Before Southgate we'd never made four quarter finals in a row. We've done that and then some.
Before Southgate we'd played in a total of three semi finals. Under Southgate we've played three semi finals in four tournaments.
Before Southgate we'd played in one final, 50 odd years previously. Under Southgate we've made two finals in four tournaments.
Before Southgate the best we could expect was a quarter final. Under Southgate that's the minimum.
Then there are the smaller accomplishments like winning penalty shoot outs, the sheer number of knockout wins( I'm not even including penalties) under him - 7 in 4 tournaments compared to 6 in the previous 25 (some of which we didn't even qualify for - another thing we don't need to worry about under the current manager), our first ever win on foreign soil against major opposition etc etc
There comes a point where you just have to say fair play he's doing something right but otherwise intelligent, rational people won't. They just keep doubling down on their criticisms even though it makes them look ridiculous.
Justice
Dangerous Idiot
Spain manage it.
Justice
Dangerous Idiot
The players he has it as his disposal deserve more than playing some kind of hybrid Hughton football. The fact the football hasn’t moved on from the Wembley final against an ageing Italy team is more the problem with Southgate’s tactics, it didn’t win a final then why would it now?
If Spain hammer England 3-0 blowing them away with the kind of football the majority of the England squad play week in week out with their clubs then the criticism is absolutely correct.
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oldboyroy
Well-known member
If we beat Spain on Sunday then fair enough. We've stank the tournament out apart from against the Dutch and some will argue we got lucky with the pen as well as it should've been a Dutch corner instead of goal kick which we went up other end and scored the winner! Its the quality we've got that's got us through, not the tactics of Gareth. Beat Spain and then we'll see if critics shut up!
Different recollection to mine.
Switzerland we were poor, but then we played some of the best football I’ve seen from an England team.
Sorry Easy, just seen this……. But no…
If you genuinely think we were crap vs Spain and actually the majority of Scotland, then you need to rewatch the games
Right now, in a luxury Hove house, there is teeth sucking and the constant muttering of “it is what it is”.
Look at Southgates last 6.
Slovenia crap
Denmark crap
Serbia crap
Slovakia crap
Switzerland crap
Netherlands Acceptable.
- Jun 27, 2012
- 14,629
or WDDWWW
I still think Southgate is the weak link in the whole England setup.
An exceptional PR man though, to be fair, which is a part of the job.
He'll deserve some accolades for beating Spain if it happens, but I think we need more emphasis on a tactically-strong coach rather than a PR-strong coach with the next appointment.
An exceptional PR man though, to be fair, which is a part of the job.
He'll deserve some accolades for beating Spain if it happens, but I think we need more emphasis on a tactically-strong coach rather than a PR-strong coach with the next appointment.
How many have we won under him? Wasn't the one against Switzerland the first? And we lost the final in a shootout, so I'm not sure how that's a good record.
He's definitely done quite a lot right.
- Jun 27, 2012
- 14,629
TomandJerry
Well-known member
- Oct 1, 2013
- 12,323
The Football Association will attempt to convince Gareth Southgate to remain as England manager regardless of the outcome of Sunday’s final against Spain, the Telegraph reports.
It was expected Southgate would leave after the Euros in Germany, his fourth major international tournament as England manager. But the FA have been impressed with the way Southgate has changed perceptions of the England team since he took charge in 2016.
It was expected Southgate would leave after the Euros in Germany, his fourth major international tournament as England manager. But the FA have been impressed with the way Southgate has changed perceptions of the England team since he took charge in 2016.
Bold Seagull
strong and stable with me, or...
If you only judge the success of the present based only what has happened in the past, then we should never have sacked Chris Hughton.
Gareth Southgate is arguably the greatest tournament manager we've had in terms of process, team spirit, getting the setup right, getting players feeling good about themselves and wanting to give their all for England. His record is exceptional.
However, the huge BUT, is in the tightest of games, when actually the decisions the manager makes are the decisive difference between winning or losing, I think you have got to say he isn't England's greatest...for the next 48 hours or so at least.
Gareth's big losses haven't been against sides you could reflect as being better on paper, they weren't Argentina of 1986, or Germany of 90 or 96, or Brazil in 02. Neither have they had player self destruction such as Beckham or Rooney red cards, or injuries at critical moments. Even if you are a massive fan of Gareth, objectively the defeats to Croatia, Italy and France had a huge dose of tactical deficiency about them.
Does the qualifying and tournament management compensate for him not being a positive proactive tactician? Maybe, and just maybe Sunday defines that answer.
Gareth Southgate is arguably the greatest tournament manager we've had in terms of process, team spirit, getting the setup right, getting players feeling good about themselves and wanting to give their all for England. His record is exceptional.
However, the huge BUT, is in the tightest of games, when actually the decisions the manager makes are the decisive difference between winning or losing, I think you have got to say he isn't England's greatest...for the next 48 hours or so at least.
Gareth's big losses haven't been against sides you could reflect as being better on paper, they weren't Argentina of 1986, or Germany of 90 or 96, or Brazil in 02. Neither have they had player self destruction such as Beckham or Rooney red cards, or injuries at critical moments. Even if you are a massive fan of Gareth, objectively the defeats to Croatia, Italy and France had a huge dose of tactical deficiency about them.
Does the qualifying and tournament management compensate for him not being a positive proactive tactician? Maybe, and just maybe Sunday defines that answer.
hart's shirt
Well-known member
I can't speak for everyone else, but as your post came immediately after mine I felt it might be worth clearing up a few things.
Having read through the entire thread, the 2 main gripes seem to be lack of appreciation for achievements and personal abuse.
Firstly, as an England fan, I'm more than happy to give Southgate the respect due for his achievements in tournament football. Like any supporter of the national side, I wish he'd achieved more as the additional victory or two would've won a trophy.
Secondly, he's a fine man, balanced and with excellent emotional intelligence to connect with the players. Dependable and reliable. The kind of guy that would take your bins out and cut your grass when you're on holiday. So any criticism should be aimed squarely at the football side of things and not veer into personal abuse.
Nevertheless, having acknowledging both of these, Southgate lacks core components of any elite manager, let alone one that manages the national side. 2 of them would be tactical awareness and in-game decision-making. I think that's been proved over the 8 years, and especially seen in the key matches. Surrendering the midfield to Modric's Croatia and sitting back after Shaw's early goal against Italy are 2 of the more obvious ones. Misplaced loyalty to out of form players would be another when it comes to selection. I expect we'll see it again in the Final with Kane. Experimenting with TAA in midfield during a competition was never likely to be well received. And then there's the style of football - dour and ponderous - with an over-reliance on defensive midfielders. But we're talking about a guy who's still dealing with the hardship with not having a replacement for Kalvin Phillips, so I should really cut him some slack.
You cite the late stage tournament runs. Many previous England managers weren't afforded the luxury of getting up to speed in group games. The 1984 Euros tournament which France won with a football of attacking intent and élan was an 8 team tournament. With only the best teams at the tournaments, teams would be facing the best sides from the very start in the group games. Although admittedly hypothetical, with England putting in poor performance during the first 4 games against lesser opposition, there's every chance that Southgate's England wouldn't have lasted long. Recent tournament expansions, the current version containing 3 times the number of sides as those from 8 tournaments ago, favour sides that struggle in the groups with 2/3rds of them still qualifying for the knockout rounds rather than half. England put in a good 1st half against the Netherlands on Wednesday night, but they did so against a team that made it through as one of the best 3rd place teams. Portugal famously won the 2016 competition despite finishing 3rd in their group. It's easier now than before to progress through a tournament playing mediocre football throughout, which Southgate (and others) have benefited from.
Of course, should the FA get their wish and Southgate stays on, he and England fans can look forward to Nations League B football in less than 2 months time following England's relegation under Southgate from the top tier. Games against the footballing superpowers of Finland, Greece and the Republic of Ireland should be eagerly anticipated by fans, although sadly I don't think there's a trophy at the end of it even if England win Group B2.
Now none of the above should detract away from what Southgate's achieved, nor his distinct likeability as a guy. But where praise is due, criticism can also fairly be applied. It's not a binary 'either or' argument, but more of a 'yes this but also this' one.
