[Football] To all the Southgate haters / wrong again and again and again **SOUTHGATE NOW RESIGNED**

[sussex_guy2k2]

How many of current team would get in the original golden generation team. 1 or 2 maybe .

I saw Harry Redknapp answer this question recently. He only had two current players over than generation - Walker and Kane were in.

Part of that has to do with the current set of players not having finished their careers, I think, so their legacy isn’t fully formed. But in reality, this current squad doesn’t seem to have the same individual potential as that squad.

 

[Cornwallboy]

Awful against Scotland, but beat them 2-0, whereas Southgate's team drew with them? Both times we drew with Switzerland. And that's your evidence for Southgate being better?

I didn't say Southgate is better, I said TV wasn't exactly the messiah. History has been somewhat rewritten regarding Euro 96 with all this 'it made the summer' etc, it really didn't. Our campaign really took off when we beat Holland on 18/6/96 and by 26/6 we were out in the semis, so just over a week before we suffered the usual disapointment of of an exit on penalties.

 

[dejavuatbtn]

I saw Harry Redknapp answer this question recently. He only had two current players over than generation - Walker and Kane were in.

Part of that has to do with the current set of players not having finished their careers, I think, so their legacy isn’t fully formed. But in reality, this current squad doesn’t seem to have the same individual potential as that squad.

Which is the whole irony in that this average squad is excelling collectively and the golden generation was mostly up their own individual arses.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

The one thing this Southgate squad does seem to have going for it is the absence of dressing room ego ie the absence of ****s

 

[Albion in the north]

I didn't say Southgate is better, I said TV wasn't exactly the messiah. History has been somewhat rewritten regarding Euro 96 with all this 'it made the summer' etc, it really didn't. Our campaign really took off when we beat Holland on 18/6/96 and by 26/6 we were out in the semis, so just over a week before we suffered the usual disapointment of of an exit on penalties.

Isnt that the whole thing though? Penalties? Thats not tactical, could almost be called luck, holding the nerve. Went out on penalties a few times not always in the 120 minutes.

 

[Easy 10]

Different recollection to mine.
Switzerland we were poor, but then we played some of the best football I’ve seen from an England team.

In a couple of games afterwards, I'd agree. But we made desperately hard work of the scotch, and fluked it against the spanish.
2 games made a summer.

 

[Easy 10]

Look at Southgates last 6.
Slovenia crap
Denmark crap
Serbia crap
Slovakia crap
Switzerland crap
Netherlands Acceptable.

Not arguing with any of that. And none of it will matter if we bring home the paella on Sunday.

But just making the point that Southgate's England career has been under the hot lights of 4 x tournament qualifications + 4 actual tournaments (all overseas aside from the 2021 job), whereas El Tel had the relative comfort of only 5 proper games to contend with, all at Wembley, of which we played really well in 2 of them.

Southgate's path has been a lot, LOT tougher.

 

[Easy 10]

Isnt that the whole thing though? Penalties? Thats not tactical, could almost be called luck, holding the nerve. Went out on penalties a few times not always in the 120 minutes.

Penalties only come down to luck if you don't prepare for them properly.
Thankfully the days of the manager wandering around asking "who fancies it then" are now long gone.

 

[Han Solo]

How many of current team would get in the original golden generation team. 1 or 2 maybe .

Based on what? Look at the "original golden generation" and how poor they performed against Spanish and often Italian top teams in the Premier League. Remember watching Michael Owen, alleged golden generation world class striker etc., in Real Madrid and technically look out of his depth. You can pour endless amounts of money on English clubs, hyping the English league and English players... but until very recently, England has not produced any Bellinghams.

There's been very, very few instances historically when one of the two monsters (Real & Barca, where 90% of all top top players pass by at some point) has looked at English players and thought "he would absolutely go into our starting eleven". The so called "Golden Generation" was only golden in England - it lacked edge in the international competition.

Good on Paul Scholes that he could be brilliant against Rory Delap on a rainy Tuesday in Stoke but to win a World Cup you need to deal with bigger threats than that. And the so called "Golden Generation" couldn't.

The current generation are better by international standards and in another ten years, with the right investment and directions, the 30 year advantage in player development most of continental Europe had might be gone and England, could have as many good players as France or Spain, which should also increase the number of elite (Bellingham class) players.

The academy aspect of English football was medieval until some 20 years ago. The team and players at the time were overrated.

The word "generation" will probably become misleading now as there should be a constant stream of talent coming out of the English academies, bit like in Spain or France. You'll win a tournament sooner rather than later... and I strongly suspect it will have very little to do with Gareth Southgate being in charge or not.

 

[Cornwallboy]

Isnt that the whole thing though? Penalties? Thats not tactical, could almost be called luck, holding the nerve. Went out on penalties a few times not always in the 120 minutes.

My point wasn't about penalties it was saying the 96 euros and the impact it had on that summer has been somewhat exaggerated.

 

[Triggaaar]

I didn't say Southgate is better

But that's the discussion you're joining. In post #187 Harry posted a graph suggesting that Southgate achieved more, and I said I didn't think it was a fair comparison, and that in the few games Venables had, he did well.

I'm not claiming he was the messiah, but he started well enough for England and he was tactically astute, so I expect he'd have gone on to do really well for us.

 

[Cornwallboy]

But that's the discussion you're joining. In post #187 Harry posted a graph suggesting that Southgate achieved more, and I said I didn't think it was a fair comparison, and that in the few games Venables had, he did well.

I'm not claiming he was the messiah, but he started well enough for England and he was tactically astute, so I expect he'd have gone on to do really well for us.

Ah got you and fair enough. Well who knows!! It's a shame the FA didn't let him carry on as would've been interesting to see how he did in qualifiers and then a WC.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

In a couple of games afterwards, I'd agree. But we made desperately hard work of the scotch, and fluked it against the spanish.
2 games made a summer.

We’ll have to disagree
The change to Redknapp at h/t vs Scotland effectively changed the tournament. Switzerland was Southgate-esque.

 

[Brovion]

All the comparison with English players and teams of the past is ignoring the fact that where we are now is the culmination of a long term plan to improve the quality of English football and the fortunes of the England football team. We first had the Elite Player Performance Plan introduced in 2011 that overhauled the Premier League academy system and then a couple of years later the FA DNA blueprint which aimed to advance the technical and tactical characteristics of the national team. There has been huge investment in the facilities and coaching throughout club and national team set up's and we are now seeing the benefits of this.

In the past, a part from the odd exception, we had less technically able players and a certain way of playing which was stuck in the past. Things are different now and Gareth Southgate has a squad of players that have the attributes to actually compete in major tournaments.

I remember when Arsenal played Barcelona years ago and Pep Guardiola was asked what he thought about Jack Wilshire at a time when there was a lot of media hype in England about him and his technical ability. Pep said something along the lines of 'he's OK but I've got a load of players as technically gifted as him in the Barcelona reserves'. At the time we so far behind the likes of Spain it was a joke, now the La Liga player of the year is English.

This should never be overlooked. It's easy to forget how DIRE English players used to be. And, it has to be said, a lot of fans (as well as the FA) liked it that way. For England fans of the 70s, 80s and even the early 90s commitment, passion, energy, etc were all rated higher than poncey technical ability. The foreigners might like all that tika-taka stuff but we preferred to heave long balls up to a big lump and just hope that English pluck would win the day - which it never did.

Thankfully barring a few dinosaurs no one thinks like that now. The FA deserve credit for that, even if they did make a false start by appointing Sam Allardyce initially. Southgate will prove to be the template for England managers for the foreseeable future..

 

[Iggle Piggle]

My point wasn't about penalties it was saying the 96 euros and the impact it had on that summer has been somewhat exaggerated.

For Euro 96 I had recently moved to the Midlands and was somewhat lonely and homesick. By the end of the tournament acquaintances turned into friendships I've still got to this day, pulled a bird that had a rather wonderful nurses uniform dress up every now and again as well as a case of the shits that lasted 4 days after I ate a food poisoned kebab after we lost to Germany. My life was completely different after that tournament and is a wonderful example of the power of sport. I simply wouldn't have met half those people and made those memories if I didn't like football albeit my gut health may have been better.

Aside from all of the personal stuff there was Gascoignes goal and the dentist chair celebration against Scotland, destroying a Dutch team littered with household names 4-1, Pearce's penalty and celebration against Spain as well as the most agonising miss for Gazza in extra time against ze Germans.

Fantastic tournament. Wonderful times when life was simpler.

 

[HangletonGull]

For Euro 96 I had recently moved to the Midlands and was somewhat lonely and homesick. By the end of the tournament acquaintances turned into friendships I've still got to this day, pulled a bird that had a rather wonderful nurses uniform dress up every now and again as well as a case of the shits that lasted 4 days after I ate a food poisoned kebab after we lost to Germany. My life was completely different after that tournament and is a wonderful example of the power of sport. I simply wouldn't have met half those people and made those memories if I didn't like football albeit my gut health may have been better.

Aside from all of the personal stuff there was Gascoignes goal and the dentist chair celebration against Scotland, destroying a Dutch team littered with household names 4-1, Pearce's penalty and celebration against Spain as well as the most agonising miss for Gazza in extra time against ze Germans.

Fantastic tournament. Wonderful times when life was simpler.

This, my life changed during that tournament, and yes agree times where simpler

 

[drew]

It's laughable to compare Southgate's career with that of Venables. FWIW, I couldn't stand El Tel. His 'diamond geezer' persona made him think he could get away with anything and it was his off field curricular activities that forced the curtailment of his England career. However, as a coach, he was well respected in the game over here and obviously in Barcelona as well. Had he stayed on he may well have gone on to achieve greater things, we'll never know.

As for Southgate, in my opinion which I think is mirrored by many, he has been lucky. He is blessed with some great players at a time when many of the traditional 'big' teams in Europe are generally poor, eg Italy, Germany, Netherlands. The stand out team is the one we face on Sunday but even France aren't playing near the standard they set only a few years ago, pretty much relying on just one player.

I want us to win on Sunday but I hope to god Southgate goes which ever is the result.

 

[Triggaaar]

This should never be overlooked. It's easy to forget how DIRE English players used to be. And, it has to be said, a lot of fans (as well as the FA) liked it that way. For England fans of the 70s, 80s and even the early 90s commitment, passion, energy, etc were all rated higher than poncey technical ability. The foreigners might like all that tika-taka stuff but we preferred to heave long balls up to a big lump and just hope that English pluck would win the day - which it never did.

That's not really accurate, given the success English teams (with predominantly British players) had in Europe.

Germany were very successful on the world stage, and they weren't into tika-taka either.

Whilst it's true that a lot of our players didn't have the technical ability of some of the good foreign teams, that's not because the fans preferred lumping it, it's just a result of the style of play in the UK. It was possible to play a high energy game in the UK without dying of exhaustion, whereas that wouldn't work in a hot country like Spain.

We now have a mix of styles in the PL and below, and we have more talented players to choose from. Like you say, partly down to the FA copying France's Clairefontaine academy.

 

[keaton]

Not arguing with any of that. And none of it will matter if we bring home the paella on Sunday.

But just making the point that Southgate's England career has been under the hot lights of 4 x tournament qualifications + 4 actual tournaments (all overseas aside from the 2021 job), whereas El Tel had the relative comfort of only 5 proper games to contend with, all at Wembley, of which we played really well in 2 of them.

Southgate's path has been a lot, LOT tougher.

Or Southgate's had 8 years to figure out players and tactics and we're still "experimenting" in the group games and changing formation

 

[The Fifth Column]

How anyone can defend the football served up by Southgate is beyond me, we still haven't won anything and failure on Sunday will still mean we haven't won anything but we got to a final so the Gareth fan boys will be happy.