[Football] To all the Southgate haters / wrong again and again and again **SOUTHGATE NOW RESIGNED**

[PILTDOWN MAN]

I really hope he can find his sword but doubt it will be sharp enough to do any damage.

 

[peterward]

He’s still bleating on this morning about being short of leadership and Kane had to play even though he was injured! Who are we missing, Maguire, Phillips, Henderson? Is that why we lost? Jeez!

What a pile of shit. He's got Walker in there, Captain of City. Rice, former captain of West Ham, Gallagher captain of Chelsea, Dunk, captain of Brighton, Toney captain of Brentford.

And leaders in Trippier , Pickford.

Making BS excuses to try and cover up his lack of tactical ability.

 

[MJsGhost]

Disagree. That's far too defeatist an attitude for me. And if we move on too quickly with a 'nothing to see' mentality, lessons will never be learned.

If England's players don't have a hope of winning a one-off game in 2 hours of football before pens, that's on the manager and how they play under him.

The momentum had switched to England after Palmer's goal. "In Berlin, the wind of change is with England" was the line of commentary.

But England sat back again and surrendered the initiative again.

The moment was lost again.

Another trophy lost again.

Whilst I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment of your post, I think Guy Mowbray was going to shoe-horn his Scorpions/Berlin/Wind of Change gag into his comms somewhere, whatever the state of the game. He was probably egged on by Shearer, who was part of the TOTES HILAIRE song title BANTZ at France '98

 

[Half Time Pies]

I don't think its a tactical decision. Its mainly down to the players.
But why do players do the choices they do?

Southgate has spent the entire tournament, and quite some time before it, to point at problems and talk a whole lot about them. Any time the English team enters the pitch, they do it as a gang of people with "problems", and they feel they need to be oh so careful if those "problems" shouldn't turn into tears.

Spain went in thinking it was a game of football, England went in thinking its a "Euro final and we're all going to die if we don't win".

Those feelings are perhaps inevitable when you do your first tournament; its hard to entirely prepare for something you haven't done before. But this is Gareths eight tournament as a player or manager. If he hasn't been able to defuse the anxiety and fear by now, its just not going to happen. He is humble and sensible, and I do believe the players like him, but he's not able to get the team in the right mindset.

I'm sure there are more people than me wondering what England could have looked like yesterday if they had a manager with a masters degree in how to emotionally lead a group through crisis or high pressure situations...

Southgate appears to be a good guy and he's probably not a bad tactician either. But its quite obvious he can't stop the players from the feeling that each game is a massive burden, or a problem that needs to be dealt with rather than a game of football.

Spain had fun for 90 minutes yesterday, England had anxiety for 90 minutes. This was the main difference between the teams.

I really don't think it has much to do with mindset, our players all play at the top level for some of the worlds biggest teams. The fact is that the Spanish team were well drilled and coached, you could see they from day 1, they had a distinct way of playing around retaining possession and pressing in numbers quickly to get the ball back, they utilised two wingers to whip balls in to the box and win corners. They had well drilled patterns of play that created space and spit the opposition.

On the other hand I am not really sure what England were set up to do, they simply had no identity, caught between pressing high and defending deep, very little in the way of obvious patterns of play, there didn't seem to have a strategy at all for playing out from the back and creating space in the middle of the park, which encouraged Pickford to lump the ball forward to a immobile Harry Kane who was clearly not fit.

It was really only the mindset and brilliance of some of our individual players that kept us in the tournament i.e. Bellinghams last minute overhead kick and incredible goals from Saka, Palmer and Watkins. We didn't create many goal scoring opportunities but these players kept their heads during key moments and took their chances.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I really don't think it has much to do with mindset, our players all play at the top level for some of the worlds biggest teams. The fact is that the Spanish team were well drilled and coached, you could see they from day 1, they had a distinct way of playing around retaining possession and pressing in numbers quickly to get the ball back, they utilised two wingers to whip balls in to the box and win corners. They had well drilled patterns of play that created space and spit the opposition.

On the other hand I am not really sure what England were set up to do, they simply had no identity, caught between pressing high and defending deep, very little in the way of obvious patterns of play, there didn't seem to have a strategy at all for playing out from the back and creating space in the middle of the park, which encouraged Pickford to lump the ball forward to a immobile Harry Kane who was clearly not fit.

It was really only the mindset and brilliance of some of our individual players that kept us in the tournament i.e. Bellinghams last minute overhead kick and incredible goals from Saka, Palmer and Watkins. We didn't create many goal scoring opportunities but these players kept their heads during key moments and took their chances.

It's a wee bit of both for me.

Our tactics, such as they are, are way too negative (or at least too safety first). But I think that comes from a mindset of 'not losing', 'not conceding' which in turn comes from data showing that the tournament winners rarely concede goals (Portugal, the 3-3 excepted, and Greece are the obvious ones but even Italy in 2021 never conceded more than one goal in any game).

Spain's mindset is obviously far more positive than that. And that drives both teams sets of tactics.

 

[Stato]

I was sent this last night:



The whole tournament England have relied upon defending and awaiting the spectacular. Our Xg has been apalling the whole tournament:



We had 35% possession last night. The same as we had in the Euro 2020 final v Italy. We had 46% against Croatia in the 2018 Semi Final. We have a squad of players who mostly play in teams that dominate possession yet there is no intent from the coaching team to play that way. David Moyes did great playing in the Europa Conference in 2023 with a West Ham team set up to play the way England are set up to play. It wouldn't have worked had he asked Man City or Arsenal's players to do it. That is what Southgate has been doing throughout his tenure.

We have players who are as technically gifted as any nation in the world. We are still playing Charles Hughes football.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I was sent this last night:



The whole tournament England have relied upon defending and awaiting the spectacular. Our Xg has been apalling the whole tournament:



We had 35% possession last night. The same as we had in the Euro 2020 final v Italy. We had 46% against Croatia in the 2018 Semi Final. We have a squad of players who mostly play in teams that dominate possession yet there is no intent from the coaching team to play that way. David Moyes did great playing in the Europa Conference in 2023 with a West Ham team set up to play the way England are set up to play. It wouldn't have worked had he asked Man City or Arsenal's players to do it. That is what Southgate has been doing throughout his tenure.

We have players who are as technically gifted as any nation in the world. We are still playing Charles Hughes football.

While that's obviously true, it's also true that we walked in two beautiful team goals that probably would have had an xG of about 0.8, except our World Class players couldn't keep themselves onside.

(I don't particularly want Southgate to stay and would welcome a change in style BTW but that adds to the overall story)

 

[Binney on acid]

You're not gonna like this, but I'm delighted that we lost. Quite simply we didn't deserve to win. We have a mentally arthritic manager, with a history of stifling creativity. A guy who was a miserable failure at Middlesborough, a guy who's tactical ineptitude won the last Euros for Italy. What does it take for us to follow the path of innovation and creativity ? Granted I feel sorry for the players, but I'm not blaming them for another shambolic display. They were only obeying orders. He's a Crawley lad. Perhaps they have a vacancy in the boot room, or need a locally based coach driver. Haven't Crawley just been promoted ? Their current level is too high for Southgate.

 

[Stato]

You're not gonna like this, but I'm delighted that we lost. Quite simply we didn't deserve to win. We have a mentally arthritic manager, with a history of stifling creativity. A guy who was a miserable failure at Middlesborough, a guy who's tactical ineptitude won the last Euros for Italy. What does it take for us to follow the path of innovation and creativity ? Granted I feel sorry for the players, but I'm not blaming them for another shambolic display. They were only obeying orders. He's a Crawley lad. Perhaps they have a vacancy in the boot room, or need a locally based coach driver. Haven't Crawley just been promoted ? Their current level is too high for Southgate.

Whilst I'm not delighted that we lost and very much wanted us to win, it did occur that an English victory playing the way we did would have been perceived by the rest of football as an injustice. I'm sure that didn't bother Greece and Portugal when they ground their way to previous championships, but we would have all known that Spain were the better side.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Whilst I'm not delighted that we lost and very much wanted us to win, it did occur that an English victory playing the way we did would have been perceived by the rest of football as an injustice. I'm sure that didn't bother Greece and Portugal when they ground their way to previous championships, but we would have all known that Spain were the better side.

That's exactly why I wanted us to win so badly. Not only would we get a trophy but it would be one that the whole of the rest of Europe would resent for at least the next two years.

Never really very likely though!

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

I was sent this last night:



The whole tournament England have relied upon defending and awaiting the spectacular. Our Xg has been apalling the whole tournament:



We had 35% possession last night. The same as we had in the Euro 2020 final v Italy. We had 46% against Croatia in the 2018 Semi Final. We have a squad of players who mostly play in teams that dominate possession yet there is no intent from the coaching team to play that way. David Moyes did great playing in the Europa Conference in 2023 with a West Ham team set up to play the way England are set up to play. It wouldn't have worked had he asked Man City or Arsenal's players to do it. That is what Southgate has been doing throughout his tenure.

We have players who are as technically gifted as any nation in the world. We are still playing Charles Hughes football.

We had 22 shots on target in the whole thing, 5 of those came against Holland

Spain had 42

We had less shots on target than teams that went home 2 rounds before us

 

[Dave the OAP]

At the end of the day, our “ word class” players are only mentioned as such because they have far better foreign players playing around them. Perfect example is foden. He is a world beater for city and truly shite for England.

spanish players as shown yesterday are those world class players who help ours look good, ie Rodri.

bottom line is we fluked our way through this tournament with dodgy penalty decisions and last gasp efforts.

spain beat Germany, France and us to win it. They had countless chances to bury us yesterday and a bit of luck that would have been 4 or 5.

we move on and probably smug Eddie or potter the new manager…although personally I would go with klopp who at least knows how to win things

but being an England fan we all know disappointment on a regular basis and can we please ditch “ it’s coming home” now please.

 

[Iggle Piggle]

Whilst I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment of your post, I think Guy Mowbray was going to shoe-horn his Scorpions/Berlin/Wind of Change gag into his comms somewhere, whatever the state of the game. He was probably egged on by Shearer, who was part of the TOTES HILAIRE song title BANTZ at France '98

I'd bet a month's mortgage he'd have done the line of "We've been taken to the magic of the moment, on a glory night for England" if we'd won.

 

[Baldseagull]

I think Southgate has done well in breaking the club cliques that existed before his tenure, and getting to finals and semis.
He has made the England team quite representative if the country, dull, and not as good as it should be for the talent that is in it.

 

[MJsGhost]

I don't think its a tactical decision. Its mainly down to the players.
But why do players do the choices they do?

Southgate has spent the entire tournament, and quite some time before it, to point at problems and talk a whole lot about them. Any time the English team enters the pitch, they do it as a gang of people with "problems", and they feel they need to be oh so careful if those "problems" shouldn't turn into tears.

Spain went in thinking it was a game of football, England went in thinking its a "Euro final and we're all going to die if we don't win".

Those feelings are perhaps inevitable when you do your first tournament; its hard to entirely prepare for something you haven't done before. But this is Gareths eight tournament as a player or manager. If he hasn't been able to defuse the anxiety and fear by now, its just not going to happen. He is humble and sensible, and I do believe the players like him, but he's not able to get the team in the right mindset.

I'm sure there are more people than me wondering what England could have looked like yesterday if they had a manager with a masters degree in how to emotionally lead a group through crisis or high pressure situations...

Southgate appears to be a good guy and he's probably not a bad tactician either. But its quite obvious he can't stop the players from the feeling that each game is a massive burden, or a problem that needs to be dealt with rather than a game of football.

Spain had fun for 90 minutes yesterday, England had anxiety for 90 minutes. This was the main difference between the teams.

It's easier to have fun when instead of winning the ball back, you just have to wait for the opposition's 'keeper to hoof the ball back to you / out for a throw / out for a goal kick.

Getting England mentally prepared is a far tougher task than Spain. The '58 years of hurt' yoke hangs heavy around their collective necks and the weight of expectation from the media and nation should not be underestimated. For Spain, they are riding a wave of form - something like 11 wins in a row - and have a lot of tournament success (3 of the last 5 Euros now).
Southgate's talk of 'problems' is aimed at reducing the weight of expectation, which I feel is a fair approach albeit we can see it didn't work. A relentlessly positive Tigger-like character might have had more success on that front, but we'll never know.

So although I totally agree that England's anxiety was a big factor, I don't think we can entirely blame Southgate for that. For me, the nobbly stick we can beat Southgate with is how they were set up and (apparently) asked to play. Negative, old-fashioned and a complete waste of the talent at his disposal.

He has done an awful lot of good in his tenure and credit will be due to him with the legacy he leaves. The better spirit in the England camps/squads (as far as we can tell) is great to see and I'm sure I'm not alone in caring a bit more about England than before he took over.

Now we just need someone with a bit of tactical nous and positivity to come in and we might see the next level. It's a little bit like RdZ coming in and taking the platform Potter left and sprinkling it with a little [is there an Italian equivalent of "je ne sais quois"?]. It might not last long, but it might be enough to win a tournament.

EDIT: I can see in the time elapsed since I started and finished my post, @Half Time Pies addressed the tactical side perfectly

 

[hart's shirt]

That's exactly why I wanted us to win so badly. Not only would we get a trophy but it would be one that the whole of the rest of Europe would resent for at least the next two years.

Never really very likely though!

Slovakia was a minute away from being another Iceland nadir. Even then, England needed extra time.

We weren't good enough to outscore Switzerland in 2 hours of football before penalties.

Netherlands was better for a half, but unconvincing over the full 90 mins.

After that, Spain was always likely to be a foregone conclusion.

And all that drama was on the easier side of the draw.

 

[amexer]

Appreciate somehow we got to the final but just think how Guardiola or Klopp would have approached games with that squad.

 

[Iggle Piggle]

Still, we've got some cracking double headers to look forward to against *checks notes* Rep of Ireland, Greece and Finland in the Nations league.

That's because "the best England manager of all time" managed to get us relegated from our Nations League group when we got beat 4-0 at home to Hungary. Happy f***ing days.

 

[Hamilton]

Criticised for sticking with Pickford - proved em wrong
Criticised for picking shaw - proved em wrong
criticised for his subs, brings on Palmer and watkins who assist and score the winner. previously Brought TAA and Toney on to take pens who both converted (v SwizzZZ)
He stuck with Kane and Bellingham despite all the 'experts' saying they should be subbed who both went on to score (v Slovakia)
won 3 knockout matches from losing positions
2 Euro Finals
1 WC Semi
Time to hold up your hands and admit you were wrong about Southgate

Holding my hands up and admitting I was 100% right about Gareth.

We should have got rid of him way before this tournament. He is a nice guy; would be great as a face of England management, but he is tactically lacking and makes poor decisions.

I won't go as far as to say that he has cost us the chance of winning, but I think he has wasted the resources he has had at his disposal through misplaced loyalty and old conservative ideas.

 

[Krafty]

It was really only the mindset and brilliance of some of our individual players that kept us in the tournament i.e. Bellinghams last minute overhead kick and incredible goals from Saka, Palmer and Watkins. We didn't create many goal scoring opportunities but these players kept their heads during key moments and took their chances.

The whole tournament England have relied upon defending and awaiting the spectacular.

We are a team of moments. Unfortunately, teams of moments don't win trophies.