Thousands of Romanians and Bulgarians spotted at the borders

[jgmcdee]

The UK has a long established local and national governance framework that's been in place since before countries like Germany and Italy were even created, and sure it can shift around; isnt that why the Scottish are getting a referendum on independence? That's democracy right?

Yes, all seems quite well established.

From an EU perspective there has been a long standing and material shift in national sovereignty; we last had a vote in 1975. Before the Lisbon Treaty EU laws could not be imposed on the British people without going through our democratically elected Parliament.............and isnt that what it should be.

Not commenting on what "should be", but again there are parallels through history and right now people in Scotland can vote in UK MPs who can vote on matters which purely affect England. Again not passing a value judgement on this state of affairs, just showing that there's nothing radically different about the EU versus the UK political systems from a structural point of view.

The incumbent national Govt at that time promised a referendum................they were voted in by the electorate on that manifesto and then swerved the referendum.

And if enough people cared they wouldn't vote for them next time.

And as for having people at the top voted in by other politicans...................that form of Govt sounds like a politburo to me.

What other form of democratic Govt operates that way?

Well you could look at, I dunno, our government. It appears to have a small group which make all the decisions and tell the others to get in line or else. And they weren't even voted in, they were all picked by a single person.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Not to mention the drain on education and health.

These are not like the Afro Caribbean's of the sixties, who wanted to come here and integrate. They come here to earn money, use our health service and use our education system. All the while sticking to their own little communities.

I know exactly what you mean. I'm grateful for my time in Luton because it showed me a different type of migration, completely different to what we have in Sussex.
One thing it did show me is how badly our governments have handled the situation. For me it didn't feel as thou there was much integration going on here as much as we are told how enriching it is.

 

[cunning fergus]

Precisely this. It seems that many people on here do not understand the basic principles of representative democracy, which is a fundamentally British approach to democracy, and one that is worth keeping in my view. The only possible case, within such a system, for a referendum it seems to me is where major constitutional changes are being considered -- if someone were to suggest aboloshing the monarchy and replacing with an elected head of state, for example, that would pose a case for a referendum. Scottish independence is another example. Joining the the EU (or EC as it was then) in the first place was arguably on a par with this, and indeed we did get a referendum on it in 1975.
Leaving the EU should also not be undertaken without asking the population first (not least, because it's such a daft suggestion).
I fail to see how fiddling around with immigration regulations amounts to fundamental constitutional change and requires a referendum.
I would suggest that people who think this way consider moving to Switzerland, where they do have referenda on such matters (.... if they could get past the immigration controls in that country of course....)

Surely in 1975 it was the EEC, i.e. the European Economic Community...............there was nothing at that time about creating a political governance framework that would compete with national Govts.

As we can tel that position in 1975 is a long way away from what we have now...................this immigration debate is merely a sysmptom of this loss of sovereignty. De facto, we do not have the means to prevent foreign nationals from the EU settling in the UK even if they are dangerous.

You want to say all is well, and you can.............there are plenty of economic benefits to support an open labour market in the UK.

But generally these benefits are being enjoyed by tory supporting landlords and employers that is why Labour are now desperatley trying to reconnect with a more impoverished than ever British working class.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/27/labour-stop-worrying-about-immigration
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jan/01/uk-workers-unprotected-migration-labour-cooper

 

[User removed 4]

Yes it should.

It's just that we should be able to do a better job of deciding who gets to come into the country in the first place.

No it really shouldn't mate, I remember nadia almeda the transexual on big brother who had a sex change operation on the NHS 2 years after pitching up here from Portugal, you really think that is an efficient use of NHS resources ? Thats a high profile case , but I have a close friend who works in the pharmacy of a local hospital in sussex , you wouldnt believe what goes on with african HIV patients and their expensive anti retroviral drugs, this person told me that a lot of them dont even ****ing live here but just fly in for 3 monthly appointments, i expect the usual blase dismissals of this story because its anecdotal , but its true , believe me.

 

[Simster]

No it really shouldn't mate, I remember nadia almeda the transexual on big brother who had a sex change operation on the NHS 2 years after pitching up here from Portugal, you really think that is an efficient use of NHS resources ? Thats a high profile case , but I have a close friend who works in the pharmacy of a local hospital in sussex , you wouldnt believe what goes on with african HIV patients and their expensive anti retroviral drugs, this person told me that a lot of them dont even ****ing live here but just fly in for 3 monthly appointments, i expect the usual blase dismissals of this story because its anecdotal , but its true , believe me.

I don't agree. I'm not arguing that those aren't shocking cases. Again, this tells me we're letting the WRONG people work and live here. People with terminal illness shouldn't be able to work here in the first place, and nor should unskilled (or those with skills we don't need) from poorer countries.

 

[Nibble]

You get many HIV infected Africans in Haywards Heath?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Fair enough. There have been suggestions on this thread that the jobs are going to immigrants because they'll take 30p an hour and live six to a room. Which would be illegal.

So let's assume for a moment that everything is equal. What would stop an employer (and I interview and employ people) giving the job to someone he knows will live here permanently and speak the language properly? I would only not give it to the English person if they were a) of slovenly appearance b) so badly educated their English was worse than the Pole / Latvian / Romanian c) unable to show up regularly d) so entitled that they wouldn't get out of bed for minimum wage or e) the job involved liasing with people in other European countries (not likely for entry level but why we have 3 Romanians working for us - because they are good linguists)

I think the "everything is equal" is the key part of your post. Sadly the maths don't add up. I'm going to use some made up figures to try and demonstrate my point.

Let's say there have always been 200 entry level jobs a year in the city but 500 school leavers. In years past that would have meant 300 leavers without a job. Nowadays there might be the same 200 jobs available but now there are 500 school leavers and 250 immigrants all fighting for the same jobs. In all likelihood, the employers ( pubs, clubs and hotels ) will accept the first person that walks through the door who fits - they won't go through some lengthy recruitment period interviewing a dozen candidates - the jobs aren't worth enough to do that. All things being equal, immigrants will end up with 25% of the jobs. Those 50 jobs would have previously gone to locals. The number of jobs remains finite while the number of people going for them increases every year.

 

[cunning fergus]

Yes, all seems quite well established.



Not commenting on what "should be", but again there are parallels through history and right now people in Scotland can vote in UK MPs who can vote on matters which purely affect England. Again not passing a value judgement on this state of affairs, just showing that there's nothing radically different about the EU versus the UK political systems from a structural point of view.



And if enough people cared they wouldn't vote for them next time.



Well you could look at, I dunno, our government. It appears to have a small group which make all the decisions and tell the others to get in line or else. And they weren't even voted in, they were all picked by a single person.

Difficult to know where to begin with this response, I guess essentially your point is that we have “a small group which make all the decisions and tell the others to get in line or else” here in the UK therefore we should accept the exactly the same environment at an EU level.

It’s a good job there were millions of people in this country who didn’t have that kind of attitude in 1939 otherwise we would have ended up being told what to do by unelected Europeans…………………..

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Look at Brits in Spain FFS.

I'd rather not look at the leather skinned, Sun reading, sovereign ringed lasagne and chips brigade thank you.

Anyway, it is time for lunch. I am now going to step out into Mitte, where I live, which has 44.5% of its population with an immigrant background. I hope someone does not steal my job whilst I am gone...or worse. Why would anyone choose to live in a place like this eh?

 

[Hamilton]

So, to clarify, the problem in question can be described (in your words) as "the concerns people have with the changes that are being brought by this new society we live in". These concerns appear to me to be the marginalising of less skilled British workforce, the overloading of public services, and arguably (not one I agree with) an erosion of our own culture.

And your short term answer to this problem is "I want more time spent on integration"?

I'm sure such clear objective thinking will come as a massive sigh of relief to those already on benefits who want a job of any sort.

As for your long term solution, can you find me ONE person who doesn't want more spent on education and training opportunities to build a world class workforce? Apart from the fact that we actually already have one, your "solution" is pure FLANNEL that wouldn't even sound clever in a VI Form common room.

You really think I'm going to have the time to write out a full solution here? You're only ever going to get broad statements on a chatroom site aren't you? Be fair and admit that.

My point is that this debate is typical of many debates in this country. It gets polarised and is based on crooked thinking. The Romanians are coming = shut the borders. More people from the EU in the UK = they must be costing us a fortune. It's just not as simple as that and we need to stop people rushing to a polar extreme response.

The same is true for other threads on this site e.g. any thread on climate change. It's either greenwash or we all need to be erecting wind farms and knitting our own yoghurt, and it's not as simple as that.

All I am pointing out is that if we restrict movement to the UK (essentially impose a human trade embargo) then we will not be better off for it. The answers lie elsewhere and our politicians should stop playing party politics with it and do what they are paid to do i.e. enrich this country culturally, economically and for the long-term.

 

[EDS]

I know exactly what you mean. I'm grateful for my time in Luton because it showed me a different type of migration, completely different to what we have in Sussex.
One thing it did show me is how badly our governments have handled the situation. For me it didn't feel as thou there was much integration going on here as much as we are told how enriching it is.

The current immigration is not enriching, it is infact very divisive. They seem to me to want it only their way. They want all of the benefits(as in better earnings, education, healthcare etc) but they do not want to integrate. To be honest I have grown to resent them and do not want anything to do with them. My girlfriend is mixed raced and most of my friends are descendants of west Indians, so I am hardly a racist. The current situation has to change because it is simply not viable.

 

[cunning fergus]

I fail to see the link between these appalling crimes and immigration policy as a whole. I can see the link between these crimes and controlling the movement of criminals. Innocent people should still be allowed to go about their business in the EU. That's all you are advocating isn't it?

So let me get this right............when a foreign national resident in the UK is convicted of molesting children in the UK, and we subsequently find out that the perpretrator had similar convictions in the country they lived in before.....................you do not see any correlation with a failing immigration policy?

I think primacy should be given to innocent people going about the business in the UK. If a firm wants to employ workers from overseas then they should be able to, they should be able to validate that the individual does not have a serious criminal record, they will pay all their tax in the UK and the firm or individual should also pay for their own healthcare (for say 5 years).

How about that.....................I am advocating that.

 

[jgmcdee]

Difficult to know where to begin with this response, I guess essentially your point is that we have “a small group which make all the decisions and tell the others to get in line or else” here in the UK therefore we should accept the exactly the same environment at an EU level.

It’s a good job there were millions of people in this country who didn’t have that kind of attitude in 1939 otherwise we would have ended up being told what to do by unelected Europeans…………………..

Wohoo, Godwin's Law is alive and well and living on NSC.

And no my point is simply that I hear so often that we should leave the EU because of the terrible way it is set up, the unelected officials, etc. but those selfsame people would defend all of the terrible features of our own system, even when they are directly analogous, just because it's "ours". Hearing it from the voice of our elected officials makes it sound like nothing other than pure power-grabbing.

 

[Nibble]

There is an ex housing association estate over the way from where I live and it seems to be populated by a heady mix of British and Polish. So far this year I have seen the Brits on the estate burn out a car, break into a shed to steal bikes, attempt to steal from the newsagents, shout at passing cars and grab a woman's boobs as she walked her kids to school. I have seen the Polish wear ill fitting track suits and go to work.

 

[jgmcdee]

There is an ex housing association estate over the way from where I live and it seems to be populated by a heady mix of British and Polish. So far this year I have seen the Brits on the estate burn out a car, break into a shed to steal bikes, attempt to steal from the newsagents, shout at passing cars and grab a woman's boobs as she walked her kids to school. I have seen the Polish wear ill fitting track suits and go to work.

Crimes against fashion simply unforgivable aren't they?

 

[Hamilton]

So let me get this right............when a foreign national resident in the UK is convicted of molesting children in the UK, and we subsequently find out that the perpretrator had similar convictions in the country they lived in before.....................you do not see any correlation with a failing immigration policy?

I think primacy should be given to innocent people going about the business in the UK. If a firm wants to employ workers from overseas then they should be able to, they should be able to validate that the individual does not have a serious criminal record, they will pay all their tax in the UK and the firm or individual should also pay for their own healthcare (for say 5 years).

How about that.....................I am advocating that.

I think you need to reread what I posted, as I said I could see a link between crimes and controlling the movement of criminals.

 

[Nibble]

Crimes against fashion simply unforgivable aren't they?

I protest their empty houses every day.

 

[soistes]

Surely in 1975 it was the EEC, i.e. the European Economic Community...............there was nothing at that time about creating a political governance framework that would compete with national Govts.

As we can tel that position in 1975 is a long way away from what we have now...................this immigration debate is merely a sysmptom of this loss of sovereignty. De facto, we do not have the means to prevent foreign nationals from the EU settling in the UK even if they are dangerous.

You want to say all is well, and you can.............there are plenty of economic benefits to support an open labour market in the UK.

But generally these benefits are being enjoyed by tory supporting landlords and employers that is why Labour are now desperatley trying to reconnect with a more impoverished than ever British working class.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/27/labour-stop-worrying-about-immigration
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jan/01/uk-workers-unprotected-migration-labour-cooper

I agree with some of what you say and it's certainly the case (as Peter Wilby's article about the Atlee era in your link perhaps unwittingly make clear) that xenophobia, fear of people who are "different" and hostility to immigrants, have never been the sole prerogative of the right.
In my view, whether or not membership of the EU in its current and likely future incarnation, is beneficial or detrimental to the British working class (in its original sense, a rather smaller population segment than in Atlee's time) is an empirical question, rather than one of ideology or politics. I used to think, in those days when the EEC -- as you rightly name it -- was a purely economic entity, that being part of it would on balance be detrimental to the British working class, and operate mainly in favour of rentiers and business owners, a capitalist club with few safeguards for the interests of the workers. That was why I voted against the UK joining in the referendum of 1975.
Since then, however, with the development of a wider concept of 'social Europe' through the EU, it seems to me (again, on balance, as an empirical matter) that the pendulum has swung somewhat in the other direction: the various regulations and directives (from health and safety at work, pensions, equality, workers' representation, working time, protection of agency workers etc) coming out of the EU have been an important brake on the inexorable shift towards deregulation and erosion of workers' rights, introduced under the Tory goverments of the 80s and 90s, and extended under New Labour (indeed that's why British governments have been so keen on securing 'opt-outs' where they can). So on balance, I now think that continued membership of the EU, with all that comes with it, including free movement of labour, is now a positive for the British working class. As I've mentioned in other posts, as far as I can see, the bulk of reputable economic evidence suggests that there has not been a negative fiscal or economic impact of EU migration, and neither has it had a negative impact on UK employment or unemployment (if anything the evidence is slightly in the other direction with positive impacts of migrants contributing more to taxes than they take from benefits, and the injection of a young, often skilled labour force adding to GDP and GDP per capita, with positive multiplier effects on the existing population).

Finally, and this is where I get onto ideology (and I suspect you will have a very different view), if one is concerned about the working class and economic and social disadvantage (and, to some extent, I am), I see no reason to give particular priority to the "British working class". I'd take a rather more internationalist perspective, and give some weight to the interests of working classes from other places and other countries. While, like most people, I do have some concern about the interests of people I know and care about (my friends and relatives in particular) and want to look after them, when it comes to people I don't know, I see no particular reason to give priority to Brits over Bulgarians, any more than I see a particular reason to give priority to people from England over people from Scotland, or to people from Brighton over people from Newcastle, or to people from Hove over people from Whitehawk -- I just have no reason to give one group a priority over the others and so I don't.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I think the "everything is equal" is the key part of your post. Sadly the maths don't add up. I'm going to use some made up figures to try and demonstrate my point.

Let's say there have always been 200 entry level jobs a year in the city but 500 school leavers. In years past that would have meant 300 leavers without a job. Nowadays there might be the same 200 jobs available but now there are 500 school leavers and 250 immigrants all fighting for the same jobs. In all likelihood, the employers ( pubs, clubs and hotels ) will accept the first person that walks through the door who fits - they won't go through some lengthy recruitment period interviewing a dozen candidates - the jobs aren't worth enough to do that. All things being equal, immigrants will end up with 25% of the jobs. Those 50 jobs would have previously gone to locals. The number of jobs remains finite while the number of people going for them increases every year.

In a growing economy (which the Tories are at pains to point out we are in) the number of jobs should not stay the same. It should increase. These sorts of posts also have incredibly high turnover / attrition rates. Perhaps we should stop mollycoddling our young and get them to knock on a few doors. Or perhaps even go back to school / on to university?

 

[cunning fergus]

Wohoo, Godwin's Law is alive and well and living on NSC.

And no my point is simply that I hear so often that we should leave the EU because of the terrible way it is set up, the unelected officials, etc. but those selfsame people would defend all of the terrible features of our own system, even when they are directly analogous, just because it's "ours". Hearing it from the voice of our elected officials makes it sound like nothing other than pure power-grabbing.

You are wrong by a country mile on both counts.

If the UK and EU systems were analogous then in the UK we would have a situation (and a long standing one at that) whereby laws would be made and imposed by (say) the Houses of Lords or the Monarch.

Both institutions are not elected by the British electorate.

If you want to defend the right of the EU Commission to impose law directly on the British public which bypasses the UK Parliament then you would be supportive of such a position. But I guess you are not right?

Godwin’s Law is only invoked when you use the H-bomb as oppose to a reference to WW2.

That said given your apparent disregard for the long standing and hard fought rights of the British electorate I can see why certain more exotic political systems championed by certain continental European political personalities from the 30s may appeal to you.