Those Man Ure Swines.....

[Jimmy Grimble]

....and so have 91 other clubs, they've just done it better than everyone else.

No they haven't, and better is the wrong word. It's not an achievement.

 

[Safe.]

WW do you think there is a manager around now, who's anywhere near as good as Sir Alex?

 

[Withdean Wanderer]

WW do you think there is a manager around now who's anywhere near as good as Sir Alex?

I have no idea about world football really - you look at Mourinho, but the way he let a Chelsea side grow old and took the excitement out of it is a big black mark against his name. A lot of people are 'bigged up' as good managers, but i'm not aware that there are any out there at the moment still going and achieving success year after year.

Having said that, you can't knock the achievements of the likes of O'neill, Redknapp and Roy Hodgson, but until they've experienced total success over a long period of time I guess they can't really be compared to Sir Alex.

 

[Safe.]

What about Pepe Guardiola? First year as a manager and he could win the treble.

 

[Withdean Wanderer]

What about Pepe Guardiola? First year as a manager and he could win the treble.

A good achievement, but when you've inherited a team with Puyol, Iniesta, Xavi, Messi, Henry and Etoo in amongst others then it takes a bit of the gloss off it.

 

[element]

It is quite an English thing to be jealous of success

Perhaps that might be why our national team doesn't do too well

 

[clapham_gull]

Furthermore, if using a 50/50 theory, it is unfair that an away teams revenue can be limited by an opponents capacity, which is totally out of their control.

Why not? That's the way it used to work and was in place to keep the money flaoting around the league and keep it competitive.

It is quite an English thing to be jealous of success

Perhaps that might be why our national team doesn't do too well

I tire of people saying that other fans are just jealous and teams like Manchester United shouldn't be punished for their success.

Well, what's happened with the break away of the Premiership and Champions League is that a system of perpetual success has been created.

The owners of the teams who wanted the break away were simply driven by profit and not the state of the game. Funnily enough one of the excuses they use at the time was that it would be good for the England team. Amazing eh ?

There was always a gap between the big clubs like Liverpool, Manchester United and the rest, but the gap was made bigger. Much much bigger.

Whoever was at the top of the tree at the start of the revolution was guarenteed to be at the top of a much much bigger tree at the end, with everyone else much lower down.

The best analogy I can use in terms of sport, would be if the winner of the hundred metres each year was given a 10 metre start at the next games.

People growing up under that system would see that as perfectly normal and if the older generation (who remembered the old competitive system) complained, the youngsters would just use criticise them for slagging off the most sucessful runner.

I don't think the English mind success at all, we just like to see it shared around.

It's sport after all.

 

[Safe.]

I like the analogy, top post.

 

[Insel affe]

who cares .............

 

[Slough Seagull]

It was only a basic example, but I was under the impression that a small cut did go to away teams (5%)?, apart from in cup matches (which are generally a one off) where the receipts are split 50/50. And in the league, there is a return fixture for the money to be balanced out.

Also, wouldn't it be a bit unreasonable to expect a team with a bigger ground to pay higher running costs because they have managed to build a superior stadium, yet still give half the takings away?

Furthermore, if using a 50/50 theory, it is unfair that an away teams revenue can be limited by an opponents capacity, which is totally out of their control.

Basically, I don't see how that can be a stick to hit United with, especially when 90% of the Old Trafford crowd is there for the home team anyway.

I believe it is 5% of each away ticket sale to cover admin and not much else - I always buy Albion away tickets in advance if avilable but it is of minimal benefit. I agree 50/50 is certainly not fair, however, for a team that is providing half the entertainment to receive nothing I would argue is unfair too - so if 90% of people in an audience went to see a headlining band a support band should get nothing?

Manchester United are hit with that stick as the team that fought to change the rule in the first place, hence, everytime I watch the Albion away I am benefiting the home team when the ONLY reason I am there is to watch my team as I don't really care who we are playing.

 

[Slough Seagull]

It is quite an English thing to be jealous of success

Perhaps that might be why our national team doesn't do too well

I would imagine that the England players are quite jealous of Spain, France, Germany etc...

 

[Jimmy Grimble]

Why not? That's the way it used to work and was in place to keep the money flaoting around the league and keep it competitive.




I tire of people saying that other fans are just jealous and teams like Manchester United shouldn't be punished for their success.

Well, what's happened with the break away of the Premiership and Champions League is that a system of perpetual success has been created.

The owners of the teams who wanted the break away were simply driven by profit and not the state of the game. Funnily enough one of the excuses they use at the time was that it would be good for the England team. Amazing eh ?

There was always a gap between the big clubs like Liverpool, Manchester United and the rest, but the gap was made bigger. Much much bigger.

Whoever was at the top of the tree at the start of the revolution was guarenteed to be at the top of a much much bigger tree at the end, with everyone else much lower down.

The best analogy I can use in terms of sport, would be if the winner of the hundred metres each year was given a 10 metre start at the next games.

People growing up under that system would see that as perfectly normal and if the older generation (who remembered the old competitive system) complained, the youngsters would just use criticise them for slagging off the most sucessful runner.

I don't think the English mind success at all, we just like to see it shared around.

Good post and I think your penultimate sentence sums it up well. I was of a similar opinion through thinking that the English game was at the top of the pile and everything was fine and dandy, which, in hindsight, probably came as a result of the English media's brainwashing techniques. With a bit of footballing education my views changed, but this ultimately came off my own back. What chance have future generations got when they are brought up on the big 4 and virtually nothing else?

 

[clapham_gull]

I like the analogy, top post.

Cheers.

Sorry to ram home the point, but it's exactly like that.

Success purely based upon money. You get higher up the league, you get more prize money to spend on players the next.

You qualify for the Champions League, you have more money to spend the next.

What a sad sad state the game is in, when commentators mention transfers budgets in the same breath as Champions League qualification.

Just imagine kids, a league where Leeds, Everton or Aston Villa could be in a chance of winning it.

Imagine the title going down to the last day of the season ?

The best thing the premiership can do is this.

ONE qualifier for the Champions League, and the rest decided by a play off system.

That should mix it up a little.

 

[Slough Seagull]

Cheers.

Sorry to ram home the point, but it's exactly like that.

Success purely based upon money. You get higher up the league, you get more prize money to spend on players the next.

You qualify for the Champions League, you have more money to spend the next.

What a sad sad state the game is in, when commentators mention transfers budgets in the same breath as Champions League qualification.

I don't think any game within the Champions League, Premier league and Championship promotion (automatic and play offs) is ever mentioned without a mention of how much money will be 'won' or 'lost'...

 

[Slough Seagull]

Good post and I think your penultimate sentence sums it up well. I was of a similar opinion through thinking that the English game was at the top of the pile and everything was fine and dandy, which, in hindsight, probably came as a result of the English media's brainwashing techniques. With a bit of footballing education my views changed, but this ultimately came off my own back. What chance have future generations got when they are brought up on the big 4 and virtually nothing else?

It is a shame that more people around the county don't think like you...

 

[Withdean Wanderer]

Cheers.

Sorry to ram home the point, but it's exactly like that.

Success purely based upon money. You get higher up the league, you get more prize money to spend on players the next.

You qualify for the Champions League, you have more money to spend the next.

What a sad sad state the game is in, when commentators mention transfers budgets in the same breath as Champions League qualification.

Just imagine kids, a league where Leeds, Everton or Aston Villa could be in a chance of winning it.

Imagine the title going down to the last day of the season ?

The best thing the premiership can do is this.

ONE qualifier for the Champions League, and the rest decided by a play off system.

That should mix it up a little.

I don't disagree with any of that. It pisses me off in particular that 4th place gets you in a league of 'Champions'.

What I do think is wrong is the way Man United are labelled as the culprits, when in reality they have simply taken advantage of what they've been allowed to do better than anyone else.

Football's reliance on money is wrong, but I have no idea how you could stop it and make things continue to work. Whoever solves that problem is some sort of genius.

 

[Paxton Dazo]

Arsenal and Chelsea came,...

 

[British Bulldog]

Arsenal and Chelsea came,...

Higher up the league than Spurs? ( again! )

 

[Jimmy Grimble]

I don't disagree with any of that. It pisses me off in particular that 4th place gets you in a league of 'Champions'.

What I do think is wrong is the way Man United are labelled as the culprits, when in reality they have simply taken advantage of what they've been allowed to do better than anyone else.

Football's reliance on money is wrong, but I have no idea how you could stop it and make things continue to work. Whoever solves that problem is some sort of genius.

It's not so much being labelled as culprits, but more as part of the blame for the system, which is fair, as they did contribute to the beginning of it and have continued to do so, with little or no interest for the sake of the game as a whole, but just themselves. In my opinion that is a more than worthy reason to dislike them.

 

[HseagullsH]

Why do these threads keep happening?

You must have learnt by now that you aren't going to come to any sort of conclusion

As for United, I absolutely hate Ferguson but I wouldn't argue against him being the best manager in the world.