Those Man Ure Swines.....

[Safe.]

Well done Man U, only 700 million pound in debt.

 

[Jimmy Grimble]

I like Manchester United. And no that doesn't mean I support them.

They are the strongest team, play the best football, and have a good core of English players. They thoroughly deserve the title.

As Ninja said: Rooooooooney!!!

So the fact they've contributed to many things that are wrong with football doesn't affect you? You're just 'happy' they play good football and couldn't give a shit that they are major factor for the sorry state of the game we have now? You couldn't give a shit they have played a part in making football more commercialised and sanitised than it should be? You couldn't give a shit that they are part of the cause for the mass amount of money we see in the game?

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from. Who gives a f*** about all that PETTY stuff when they play good football.

 

[HP Seagull]

So the fact they've contributed to many things that are wrong with football doesn't affect you? You're just 'happy' they play good football and couldn't give a shit that they are major factor for the sorry state of the game we have now? You couldn't give a shit they have played a part in making football more commercialised and sanitised than it should be? You couldn't give a shit that they are part of the cause for the mass amount of money we see in the game?

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from. Who gives a f*** about all that PETTY stuff when they play good football.

Don't get all sarcastic. Manchester are not the cause or foundation of what is wrong with English football. They merely took advantage of the ridiculous state the game has been left in with TV money etc. Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea, Bolton, Middlesborough, and all the other teams in the Premiership have tried to look after themselves and make as much money as they can.

Yes they're not perfect, but they are as much as cause of the problem as other clubs. The main offender is SKY.

Who are you to accuse me of not giving a shit about the state of English football? You've clearly just got a problem with Manchester United and see them as the reason for everything that is wrong with the game.

My original post that you have quoted was due to my respect for the football that they play, and the fact that they have some of my favorite English players playing for them, such as Scholes and Rooney.

Your post is patronising and pathetic.

 

[HP Seagull]

I don't agree about Liverpool. Take out Gerrard and Torres and there really isn't much else there. Perhaps they thought splashing £20M on Keane was the final cog in the machine, but were proved wrong...

Regarding Man. Utd's youth setup, how many have featured this season? Tevez, Ronaldo, Rooney, Vidic, Evra, Berbatov, Park to name a few were all bought and contributed a fair few goals to the tally...

I too can't wait for Falmer to open and with a bit more money coming in, we will see better players and most important, better football

I know what you're saying, but I'm not necessarily talking about the amount of players from their academy that they've got playing for them this season. More that that have been able to get themselves to this position through, among other things, developing their own players successfully and therefore winning titles, which leads to making lots of money.

Even this season though they have players such as Giggs, Scholes, Fletcher, Welbeck, and others, who have contributed to the first team.

 

[Don Quixote]

So the fact they've contributed to many things that are wrong with football doesn't affect you? You're just 'happy' they play good football and couldn't give a shit that they are major factor for the sorry state of the game we have now? You couldn't give a shit they have played a part in making football more commercialised and sanitised than it should be? You couldn't give a shit that they are part of the cause for the mass amount of money we see in the game?

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from. Who gives a f*** about all that PETTY stuff when they play good football.

The kid that talks sense

 

[Safe.]

I don't agree about Liverpool. Take out Gerrard and Torres and there really isn't much else there. Perhaps they thought splashing £20M on Keane was the final cog in the machine, but were proved wrong...

Regarding Man. Utd's youth setup, how many have featured this season? Tevez, Ronaldo, Rooney, Vidic, Evra, Berbatov, Park to name a few were all bought and contributed a fair few goals to the tally...

I too can't wait for Falmer to open and with a bit more money coming in, we will see better players and most important, better football

Spot on Liverpool never win with out Torres and Gerrard, in fact there team is shit with out them. Who the f*** is Alonso?

 

[HseagullsH]

Spot on Liverpool never win with out Torres and Gerrard, in fact there team is shit with out them. Who the f*** is Alonso?

Are you joking? Alonso has been brilliant this year and that is why teams like Real are trying to sign him.

Mascherano is also class and the defence is pretty solid.

But yeh attacking wise, they are not the same team without Gerrard and Torres.

 

[Jimmy Grimble]

Don't get all sarcastic. Manchester are not the cause or foundation of what is wrong with English football. They merely took advantage of the ridiculous state the game has been left in with TV money etc. Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea, Bolton, Middlesborough, and all the other teams in the Premiership have tried to look after themselves and make as much money as they can.

Yes they're not perfect, but they are as much as cause of the problem as other clubs. The main offender is SKY.

Who are you to accuse me of not giving a shit about the state of English football? You've clearly just got a problem with Manchester United and see them as the reason for everything that is wrong with the game.

My original post that you have quoted was due to my respect for the football that they play, and the fact that they have some of my favorite English players playing for them, such as Scholes and Rooney.

Your post is patronising and pathetic.

I'll get as sarcastic as I want, BUDDY.

I didn't say they were the sole cause, I said they are part of the reason for the current state of the game. Which they are. Read it again.

They are not as much of a problem as they other clubs. They are more of a problem. Did other clubs; play an instrumental part in getting rid of shared gate receipts? Did other clubs attempt to undermine the world's oldest cup competition in the pursuit of their own greed? Did other clubs shamelessly milk a 50 year old tragedy for commercial gain?

They have no appreciation or awareness for the other 92 clubs in the league. They are arrogant, gluttonous, wankers.

Yes I have a problem with Man United. Many people do. People who can comprehend that they have partially orchestrated the sorry situation we see in English football now. It's a worthy reason.

I have not once stated they are the only reason for this mess, though, much of it is clrealy down to Sky(Didn't stop Man united from sucking up to them at every oppurtunity did it?) As much as you'd like for me to have written that they are the only reasom so you have a point to argue agasint, I didn't. So try again.

 

[Safe.]

Are you joking? Alonso has been brilliant this year and that is why teams like Real are trying to sign him.

Mascherano is also class and the defence is pretty solid.

But yeh attacking wise, they are not the same team without Gerrard and Torres.

Yeah, who actually scores besides Gerrard and Torres?

 

[element]

I know what you're saying, but I'm not necessarily talking about the amount of players from their academy that they've got playing for them this season. More that that have been able to get themselves to this position through, among other things, developing their own players successfully and therefore winning titles, which leads to making lots of money.

Even this season though they have players such as Giggs, Scholes, Fletcher, Welbeck, and others, who have contributed to the first team.

I see where you're coming from about the academy situation, in that 'The Golden Team' of the mid-nineties included the Nevilles, Beckham, Scholes, Butt and Giggs, who all came through the academy and did indeed act as a springboard for the club to win things and increase their prestige and turnover...

What concerns me is that a few years ago, 49% of their turnover was ticket sales, with the other 51% from other sources. When you think of the money from selling out a 72/78 000 seater stadium every game and double it, it becomes apparent that it is not a level playing field

I'm a great believer in, 'If you can't beat 'em, join 'em...', so it's up to everyone else to follow the model

 

[HP Seagull]

I'll get as sarcastic as I want, BUDDY.

I didn't say they were the sole cause, I said they are part of the reason for the current state of the game. Which they are. Read it again.

They are not as much of a problem as they other clubs. They are more of a problem. Did other clubs; play an instrumental part in getting rid of shared gate receipts? Did other clubs attempt to undermine the world's oldest cup competition in the pursuit of their own greed? Did other clubs shamelessly milk a 50 year old tragedy for commercial gain?

They have no appreciation or awareness for the other 92 clubs in the league. They are arrogant, gluttonous, wankers.

Yes I have a problem with Man United. Many people do. People who can comprehend that they have partially orchestrated the sorry situation we see in English football now. It's a worthy reason.

I have not once stated they are the only reason for this mess, though, much of it is clrealy down to Sky(Didn't stop Man united from sucking up to them at every oppurtunity did it?) As much as you'd like for me to have written that they are the only reasom so you have a point to argue agasint, I didn't. So try again.

Your arrogance and, dare I say it, ignorance is astonishing. I'm glad we're buddies though.

I repeat, as you seemingly only take the bits out of posts that you want to read, that my original post, the one that you took offence to, was merely out of my appreciation for the football they play and the players they posess. There was no financial, commercial or any other reasons behind it.

If it makes you happy, or helps you to understand, I will 'try again'.

Manchester United are a typical Premier League club in many ways: They now function as a business as opposed to a sports club. The reason they are so successful is because they have money. Money which they have accumulated through winning trophies, the foundations of which have been laid through an excellent youth system, even going back to the Busby Babes who were nurtured through to the first team.

You say you don't see them as the sole reason for the state of the game. If that is you're opinion then you would be right; they are not. They are as much at fault, as I said earlier, as Chelsea, Liverpool, Sky, FIFA, the list could go on. Television money has ruined the game at the top level and devalued many of the most historic competitions in Europe. The Premier League now kicks off at virtually any time of day or night, the European Cup has now been transformed into the Champions League where it anything but (more a best 3 or 4 in each country league), and the FA Cup now kicks off whenever the money-men want, more games are shown on TV, and the clubs can get more money from other competitions.

You say Manchester United were at fault for de-valueing the FA Cup. I was as outraged as anyone when they chose not to participate in the competition, and although I don't think they should have done it, it had already been de-valued through the reasons mentioned above.

As for your opinion that they shamelessly milked a 50 year old tragedy for commercial gain. That is quite simply unbelievable.

My over-riding point in this whole matter is that Manchester United are no more at fault for the state of football than any other top Premier League club. They are only out for themselves. No they don't care about Football League Clubs, but do Bolton? Their Chairman advocates a two-tiered Premier League. Surely that would do more damage, do you hate them as much? Are Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs and the rest not 'arrogant, gluttonous, wankers' too? Redknapp, Phil Brown, Tony Pulis and co all openly play weakened sides for the FA Cup, that also de-values the competition.

SKY and television are the ones mainly at fault, as well as FIFA and the other governing bodies for not being strong enough to contain them.

 

[Safe.]

HP who do you think started spending big money constantly in the prem?

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

As I was going to work this morning , 40 Manure fans were boarding a coach heading for Manchester from the pub car park near where I live. Had a chuckle when I got off the bus this afternoon after work as the pub had a wedding do on , so it was devoid of Manure plastics.

 

[HP Seagull]

HP who do you think started spending big money constantly in the prem?

I agree Manchester United were the first ones to start spending large amounts of money in the newly formed Premier League, but that was financed largely through TV money and, as I have said, money made through their own making. They were hardly the only ones spending money.

It is not a new phenominon, one team dominating financially, it has just become exagerrated in the last decade due to an influx of money into the game. I would also argue that if it hadn't been them it would have been someone else.

 

[Jimmy Grimble]

Your arrogance and, dare I say it, ignorance is astonishing. I'm glad we're buddies though.

I repeat, as you seemingly only take the bits out of posts that you want to read, that my original post, the one that you took offence to, was merely out of my appreciation for the football they play and the players they posess. There was no financial, commercial or any other reasons behind it.

HP Seagull: "I like Manchester United". I didn't take offence to it. I challenged it asking how you can like them despite what they've done to English football, even if they play good football. OK? Playing good football does not make them exempt from deserved criticism.

If it makes you happy, or helps you to understand, I will 'try again'.

Manchester United are a typical Premier League club in many ways: They now function as a business as opposed to a sports club. The reason they are so successful is because they have money. Money which they have accumulated through winning trophies, the foundations of which have been laid through an excellent youth system, even going back to the Busby Babes who were nurtured through to the first team.

They were the first to be a 'typical Premier League club', spending large amounts of money, exploiting other bussiness' and clubs for their own personal gain. They set the tone for other teams; there was no choice for other sides but to follow their style. A lot of their money has come from backers. Not winning trophies. Yes their youth system was good, but that came from stealing players outside their region and from other clubs. Bit of unfair isn't it? I'd say that's a reason to dislike them if their wasnt already enough.

You say you don't see them as the sole reason for the state of the game. If that is you're opinion then you would be right; they are not. They are as much at fault, as I said earlier, as Chelsea, Liverpool, Sky, FIFA, the list could go on. Television money has ruined the game at the top level and devalued many of the most historic competitions in Europe. The Premier League now kicks off at virtually any time of day or night, the European Cup has now been transformed into the Champions League where it anything but (more a best 3 or 4 in each country league), and the FA Cup now kicks off whenever the money-men want, more games are shown on TV, and the clubs can get more money from other competitions.

Roman Ambramovich (or however you spell it) and Liverpools owners would not be here if Man United hadn't played their part in making the English game so brand focused. The rest of what you say is right .

You say Manchester United were at fault for de-valueing the FA Cup. I was as outraged as anyone when they chose not to participate in the competition, and although I don't think they should have done it, it had already been de-valued through the reasons mentioned above.

Doesn't stop it from being an utterly twatish thing to do does it?

As for your opinion that they shamelessly milked a 50 year old tragedy for commercial gain. That is quite simply unbelievable.

My over-riding point in this whole matter is that Manchester United are no more at fault for the state of football than any other top Premier League club. They are only out for themselves. No they don't care about Football League Clubs, but do Bolton? Their Chairman advocates a two-tiered Premier League. Surely that would do more damage, do you hate them as much? Are Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs and the rest not 'arrogant, gluttonous, wankers' too? Redknapp, Phil Brown, Tony Pulis and co all openly play weakened sides for the FA Cup, that also de-values the competition.

They are at fault more because they played a fairly instrumental part in starting the trend. Yes, I do hate Bolton because of Gartside, but they haven't done as much damage as ManU and his fantasy will never come true. Yes, they are in their own respects, wankers too. Redknapp is a cock and has been for a while. Brown and Pulis' decision is understandable. It comes as a result of the need to stay in the Premier League more than do well in the FA Cup for financial reasons. Some of these reasons can be equated with Man United's role in the early days of the Premier League and their future motives.

SKY and television are the ones mainly at fault, as well as FIFA and the other governing bodies for not being strong enough to contain them.

Yeah, agreed. But Man United have played their part.

....

 

[HP Seagull]

....

Fair enough Conboy. You do have some valid points. Although I stand by my original arguments, I agree with much of what you say there. But I don't think the blame (or the amount you aim at them) can be levelled solely at United. I think there are far more important reasons than them for the state of football.

One other point of yours that I would strongly disagree with is that Hicks/Gillett and Abramovic would not be here if it wasn't for Manchester United. A business opportunity in a business opportunity for these people, no matter whether someone has done it before or not.

NB. The "I like Manchester United" bit was aimed at the team and the manager from a purely footballing point of view, not at the club as a whole.

 

[bigc]

Yeah, who actually scores besides Gerrard and Torres?

Kuyt has got into double figures this season, but the fact you do down Alonso, who has been one of the BEST players this season, shows your opinion is anything but "safe".

 

[Safe.]

Kuyt has got into double figures this season, but the fact you do down Alonso, who has been one of the BEST players this season, shows your opinion is anything but "safe".

I was being sarcastic. I think Yossi may be in to double figures as well.

 

[element]

I read somewhere that Abramovich had put £710M into Chelsea, who now look like an overpriced shambles, so it would appear that just chucking money at a team with no underpinning is perhaps not the way to go!?

 

[Slough Seagull]

I blame Louis Edwards...for a good introduction check out Chapter 2 of David Conn's book The Football Business