[News] There's no need to panic buy petrol

[dsr-burnley]

So basically, we have to crow bar you away from the 'usual suspects' in order to get a much more balanced opinion on the forces at work here. Perhaps any acknowledgement of the challenges leaving the EU has given us feels too much like giving fuel to the 'other side' (if you'll excuse the pun).

I will pick up on one thing, 'cheap foreign labour' – is there any evidence EU drivers were paid less than their UK counterparts? Marco Digioia, the head of the European Road Haulers Association has actually said European wages for drivers is generally higher than in the UK, and EU funding has helped ensure facilities for stop overs for drivers are of a much higher standard and less cost to the drivers than in the UK as well.

We all carry our perspective and opinions, calling EU workers 'cheap foreign labour' just seems like another rhetorical aspect of where people stand on the EU. I seem to remember the London School of Economics did a study that showed that EU migrant workers didn't actually drive down wages, they just fulfilled a need in our economy. Now I agree with you that now needs to be filled, and when you have a shortage of workers you may well find salaries start to rise, and in turn inflation. Challenging economic times ahead that is for sure.

If wages in this country were not significantly higher than in much of Eastern Europe, then why would so many Eastern Europeans be in the UK working? They don't come here for the climate, they don't come because they don't like home, they come for money.

You might be under a misapprehension about "EU workers". The EU does not have a common wages policy. Wages in the "western" EU such as France and Germany are no doubt comparable or better than ours, but wages in the old soviet area are still a long way from catching up.

I don't think anyone has suggested that EU workers get paid less than UK workers, in any field of labour. The suggestion is that employers can fill their payroll with workers from abroad at lower rates than people from the UK could earn. UK workers get paid the same as foreign workers, but that pay is less than it would be if foreign workers weren't here.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

You raise a good point actually. It would be nice is this crises makes people reevaluate their need for the all journeys they make, or even whether they need a car at all. I doubt it though.

If I didn't need the car for my job, I would seriously consider coming off the road for a few months. Driving is now a mission at certain times of the day, and it's not going to get any better.

 

[LamieRobertson]

I joined a Facebook group Fuel Updates Sussex which has been helpful for a family member if anyone is interested

 

[sparkie]

Johnson's humiliation would be complete if Macron announced he had a fleet of full tankers ready to cross the Channel to help out the supply of British drivers.

*Dreams while trying to figure out how to actually get fuel tomorrow*

 

[Westdene Seagull]

You raise a good point actually. It would be nice is this crises makes people reevaluate their need for the all journeys they make, or even whether they need a car at all. I doubt it though.

You might be being over optimistic .... the fuel blockades in the early 2000's didn't so I doubt this will.

For those that NEED fuel there is some at Sainsburys West Hove - you will need to queue for around an hour though.

Time to bring in the Army Boris.

 

[KeegansHairPiece]

It’s quite easy to find a perspective different to yours on the internet eg;

https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...xposed-britains-exploitative-low-wage-economy

As to a balanced view, well, I have never said that Brexit was not a contributory factor. I have simply responded to posts that claim it is the main cause because that’s what the poster wishes to believe.

Different to mine? I didn't really give one, I asked you to clarify a statement you made in your post as to whether there was evidence for you calling EU lorry drivers 'cheap foreign labour'.

That new stateman piece appears to be devoid of a single fact, figure or statistic and involves the author's opinion, a couple of conversations with some workers and a chat with their brother-in-law.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Best for Britain

(@BestForBritain)

This is what a Dutch HGV driver, and representative of an EU drivers’ union thinks of the short term visa scheme: “The EU workers we speak to will not go back to the UK for a short term visa, to help UK out of the s**t they created themselves.”

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

A lovely way with words….and spot on of course. Why would they? The ones that departed, or don’t route through the UK anymore, did this for a good reason. Why would they or any others want to go back? It just smacks of typical British arrogance to think lorry drivers will now flock to the UK on the promise of a visa when they can get all of what the UK is offering without any of the hassle of visa and customs red-tape in the EU.

 

[Not Andy Naylor]

if this were an exam essay question, we'd expect a good long answer looking at the long term deterioration of the profession, impact of regulations (right or wrong), aging work force retired out of without replacement, working conditions etc, brexit then covid as a recent factors exacerbating these long term issues. wouldnt get marks for answering "Brexit!". our resident lorry drivers have stated there is a long path of problems, not a single cause.

i point this out as when we keep on putting blame of everything on one cause, people will switch off, and the other significant issues will be drowned out. brexit may be a contributing factor to why we have a shortage of drivers, it is not the cause of this situation. this was caused by one press release being reported with inflated magnitude.

I'll pose the exam question a different way. In the same circumstances but with one exception - the UK still being in the EU - how different would today's front pages look?

 

[nicko31]

Best for Britain

(@BestForBritain)

This is what a Dutch HGV driver, and representative of an EU drivers’ union thinks of the short term visa scheme: “The EU workers we speak to will not go back to the UK for a short term visa, to help UK out of the s**t they created themselves.”

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

Come over please, Priti will deport you on Christmas Eve and provide a free rubber dingy. But you will need to source you own fuel....

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Different to mine? I didn't really give one, I asked you to clarify a statement you made in your post as to whether there was evidence for you calling EU lorry drivers 'cheap foreign labour'.

That new stateman piece appears to be devoid of a single fact, figure or statistic and involves the author's opinion, a couple of conversations with some workers and a chat with their brother-in-law.

Here we go again. Yes, you gave an opinion on the impact of foreign labour on wage rates. I responded. The New Statesman article was not supposed to be definitive. It was just the first thing that came up on Google and was merely meant to illustrate there is a debate about the point you raised. That’s all.

 

[KeegansHairPiece]

You raise a good point actually. It would be nice is this crises makes people reevaluate their need for the all journeys they make, or even whether they need a car at all. I doubt it though.

We try to keep our reliance on our car to an absolute minimum. My daughter has just turned 17 and my wife and parents for that matter asking whether we're immediately going to send her out on driving lessons? Why? We live near a train station, next to bus routes, she has a bike, she may well go off to university at some point - my response was it really isn't a right of passage for every person in this country to pass their driving test and need to drive / own a car. My daughter isn't that bothered - so why push it is my answer. There has to be a better answer than everyone being imprinted with the need to drive.

It comes from the 70s, and whereas the likes of the Dutch went 'hang on a minute, if everyone starts driving there won't be enough room or places to park - we need to change the culture and infra-structure on this for the longer term, we went 'Woohoo everyone can own a car, 2 cars, we'll just build the roads wider and car parking higher'. Can't for the life of me think which route was the best way of thinking...

 

[Deleted member 22389]

If wages in this country were not significantly higher than in much of Eastern Europe, then why would so many Eastern Europeans be in the UK working? They don't come here for the climate, they don't come because they don't like home, they come for money.

You might be under a misapprehension about "EU workers". The EU does not have a common wages policy. Wages in the "western" EU such as France and Germany are no doubt comparable or better than ours, but wages in the old soviet area are still a long way from catching up.

I don't think anyone has suggested that EU workers get paid less than UK workers, in any field of labour. The suggestion is that employers can fill their payroll with workers from abroad at lower rates than people from the UK could earn. UK workers get paid the same as foreign workers, but that pay is less than it would be if foreign workers weren't here.

My daughters friends parents are from Poland, and they said the reason for coming here was the job opportunities and wages. Apparently everything is expensive in Poland. They see no reasons to go back.

Compare that to other parents I know at my daughters school, both from Czech. They have gone back now, as apparently things have really improved.

 

[Uter]

You raise a good point actually. It would be nice is this crises makes people reevaluate their need for the all journeys they make, or even whether they need a car at all. I doubt it though.

I think it certainly has in the immediate short term, as there were noticeably fewer cars around in Hove this morning. But I doubt this will lead to any long term shift.

We've had a mono-modal transport policy for decades now. Even if people wanted to change it's difficult for many to do so because of the lack of investment in other modes.

 

[Durlston]

Similar here in Merseyside. My only worry is whether or not to drive down south for the game at the weekend. Might be safer up here where it is a bit more sensible.

Aye. But Scousers siphon petrol instead.

 

[sparkie]

If I lived within striking distance of the ferry I'd seriously be considering a day trip to France to fill up.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

I think it certainly has in the immediate short term, as there were noticeably fewer cars around in Hove this morning. But I doubt this will lead to any long term shift.

We've had a mono-modal transport policy for decades now. Even if people wanted to change it's difficult for many to do so because of the lack of investment in other modes.

The timing is all wrong.

It's been p*ssing down and they've just ripped out a cycle lane along a major route. Otherwise this would be a great time to be promoting a modal shift

 

[Scampi]

We try to keep our reliance on our car to an absolute minimum. My daughter has just turned 17 and my wife and parents for that matter asking whether we're immediately going to send her out on driving lessons? Why? We live near a train station, next to bus routes, she has a bike, she may well go off to university at some point - my response was it really isn't a right of passage for every person in this country to pass their driving test and need to drive / own a car. My daughter isn't that bothered - so why push it is my answer. There has to be a better answer than everyone being imprinted with the need to drive.

It comes from the 70s, and whereas the likes of the Dutch went 'hang on a minute, if everyone starts driving there won't be enough room or places to park - we need to change the culture and infra-structure on this for the longer term, we went 'Woohoo everyone can own a car, 2 cars, we'll just build the roads wider and car parking higher'. Can't for the life of me think which route was the best way of thinking...

I have two teenagers, one at university one in the sixth form. It's really noticeable how few of their friends are bothered about gettting a driving license. I think some of it is to do with cost, they've been priced out by silly insurance premiums, but it's also about environmental awareness. The coming climate catastophe is a very real worry to them in the way nuclear war was to my generation.

 

[KeegansHairPiece]

If wages in this country were not significantly higher than in much of Eastern Europe, then why would so many Eastern Europeans be in the UK working? They don't come here for the climate, they don't come because they don't like home, they come for money.

You might be under a misapprehension about "EU workers". The EU does not have a common wages policy. Wages in the "western" EU such as France and Germany are no doubt comparable or better than ours, but wages in the old soviet area are still a long way from catching up.

I don't think anyone has suggested that EU workers get paid less than UK workers, in any field of labour. The suggestion is that employers can fill their payroll with workers from abroad at lower rates than people from the UK could earn. UK workers get paid the same as foreign workers, but that pay is less than it would be if foreign workers weren't here.

Of course the EU doesn't have a common wages, clearly the person I quoted was referring to average wages across Europe as a whole. I was asking for the evidence not giving it, I simply quoted a source.

There is also conflicting evidence migrants kept wages lower across the board. Certainly in the food and drink service industries and seasonal farming labour they probably did, but in more semi-skilled areas wages still rose with their UK counterparts, and wages rose in line with expected rates. I'm pretty sure they came here for work and the money, either the money was better or they couldn't get the work in their country. Right now there is plenty of well paid work in Europe, and with the increased hassle of needing visas, we no longer have the benefit of access to a labour force when we meet crisis points in our economic output. The construction industry will be next to feel the strain.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Best for Britain

(@BestForBritain)

This is what a Dutch HGV driver, and representative of an EU drivers’ union thinks of the short term visa scheme: “The EU workers we speak to will not go back to the UK for a short term visa, to help UK out of the s**t they created themselves.”

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

That is fine and an understandable postion, but it also doesnt explain the mess in other European countries.

What was the "shit they created themselves?"

 

[Creaky]

Of course the EU doesn't have a common wages, clearly the person I quoted was referring to average wages across Europe as a whole. I was asking for the evidence not giving it, I simply quoted a source.

There is also conflicting evidence migrants kept wages lower across the board. Certainly in the food and drink service industries and seasonal farming labour they probably did, but in more semi-skilled areas wages still rose with their UK counterparts, and wages rose in line with expected rates. I'm pretty sure they came here for work and the money, either the money was better or they couldn't get the work in their country. Right now there is plenty of well paid work in Europe, and with the increased hassle of needing visas, we no longer have the benefit of access to a labour force when we meet crisis points in our economic output. The construction industry will be next to feel the strain.

Tell that to workers in the care sector!