The Vaccine Thread

[Driver8]

We're the only country in the world that is "off label" on Pfzier out to 12 weeks on the second dose, its outside the manufacturers direction.

Government thinks it knows better than everyone else, again we were seeing exceptionalism.

There could be a possibility that some countries will consider Pfzier vaccination applied from the UK invalid and will not permit entry

Not to mention the risk of undermining public confidence in vaccination which is absolutely essential

They haven't thought it through...

It’s all about numbers. They want to say the have vaccinated X number of people and are much better than everyone else.

 

[e77]

My instinct is people are working themselves into a frenzy over this for little reason.

The vaccine was always sold as a two stage process, albeit with some protection after the first one. If the NHS want to wait 12 weeks before a second dose there is probably an extremely good scientific reason based on testing and trialling. As for the soldier mentioned in the article even if he was given the second jab early would it have worked as well?

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

We're the only country in the world that is "off label" on Pfzier out to 12 weeks on the second dose, its outside the manufacturers direction.

Government thinks it knows better than everyone else, again we were seeing exceptionalism.

There could be a possibility that some countries will consider Pfzier vaccination applied from the UK invalid and will not permit entry

Not to mention the risk of undermining public confidence in vaccination which is absolutely essential

They haven't thought it through...

That would so funny lol. What a mistake to make !

And there is no way they could spin it.

Someone would have to resign.

 

[beorhthelm]

Certainly appears even if Israel is not entirely accurate the efficacy on the Pfizer is much below the 89% touted leaving many millions very vulnerable until they've received their 2nd jabs and had the 3 weeks to build up an imune response which will even at a good lick probsbly take us into June.

yes, everyone on every vaccine will be vulnerable for a couple of weeks after their jab. what you must accept is the second jab is a booster, it raises the efficacy from very good to exceptionally good. it doesnt make it turn on the efficacy as some seem to be inferring.

 

[crodonilson]

yes, everyone on every vaccine will be vulnerable for a couple of weeks after their jab. what you must accept is the second jab is a booster, it raises the efficacy from very good to exceptionally good. it doesnt make it turn on the efficacy as some seem to be inferring.

Problem is though the real time data out of Israel seems to suggest the efficacy of the first jab is not actually 'very good' though. The 2nd jab appears to be more than a booster and for our most vuknerable they really need that 2nd jab before we can contemplate any meaningful easing of restrictions.

 

[beorhthelm]

Problem is though the real time data out of Israel seems to suggest the efficacy of the first jab is not actually 'very good' though. The 2nd jab appears to be more than a booster and for our most vuknerable they really need that 2nd jab before we can contemplate any meaningful easing of restrictions.

you are making assumptions that arent supported by data or information on the vaccine. i could make some other inferences from the Israel reports. best to wait at least until we have more data.

 

[Driver8]

you are making assumptions that arent supported by data or information on the vaccine. i could make some other inferences from the Israel reports. best to wait at least until we have more data.

Isn’t that what the UK government have done? Pfizer themselves have said they haven’t tested what effect giving the dose 12 weeks has. It may work, may not, who knows?

It seems a huge risk to me.

 

[nicko31]

It’s all about numbers. They want to say the have vaccinated X number of people and are much better than everyone else.

Are you suggesting they are putting Public Relations ahead of Public Health?

Governments around the world need to realise no one is safe until everyone is safe...

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Problem is though the real time data out of Israel seems to suggest the efficacy of the first jab is not actually 'very good' though. The 2nd jab appears to be more than a booster and for our most vuknerable they really need that 2nd jab before we can contemplate any meaningful easing of restrictions.

The big worry is that (again) the Government is prioritising a headline ( numbers vaccinated !!!!!!! ) over substance ( numbers who get the proper, recommended vaccine dosage on the manufacturers' specified schedule ).

 

[beorhthelm]

Isn’t that what the UK government have done? Pfizer themselves have said they haven’t tested what effect giving the dose 12 weeks has. It may work, may not, who knows?

It seems a huge risk to me.

MHRA made a judgment based on the data. there is no data to indicate one dose schedule reduces efficacy after 21 days. the risk is based on their interpretation of the data and knowledge of how vaccines and immune system function in general.

worth noting the JCVI covering the four nations signed off on this change, thats four Chief Medical Officers agreeing to the vaccine schedule.

 

[nicko31]

MHRA made a judgment based on the data. there is no data to indicate one dose schedule reduces efficacy after 21 days. the risk is based on their interpretation of the data and knowledge of how vaccines and immune system function in general.

There is no data to indicate one dose schedule reduces efficacy after 21 days, there is no data to indicate one dose schedule increases efficacy after 21 days, there is no data to indicate one dose schedule is has constant efficacy after 21 days

There is no data

Follow the manufacturers instructions, almost everyone else is

 

[beorhthelm]

There is no data to indicate one dose schedule reduces efficacy after 21 days, there is no data to indicate one dose schedule increases efficacy after 21 days, there is no data to indicate one dose schedule is has constant efficacy after 21 days

There is no data

Follow the manufacturers instructions, almost everyone else is

there *is* a shit ton of data on vaccine and immune response in general. maybes, the experts can apply that?

 

[Driver8]

there *is* a shit ton of data on vaccine and immune response in general. maybes, the experts can apply that?

Not for mRNA vaccines there isn’t.

 

[beorhthelm]

Not for mRNA vaccines there isn’t.

fair point.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Very concerning piece in the Guradian regarding the South African variant of Covid and thet it appears that the antibodies it produces are 8 times less effective at beasting off Covid than the other strains currently known. If this is the cases even with a full vaccination programme it is correct many governments around the world are now stating the vaccinaton is only one of the tools in the toolbox ti tacjle the virus and other measures such as mask wearing, social distancing and periodic lockdowns, particularly at local levels will need to continue into the future to ensure the virus doesn't get out of hand again.

I don't understand your wording there, sorry. "The antibodies it produces". If you mean the body in reaction to that strain of the actual virus then it's immaterial to the vaccine. The vaccine will produce the antibodies. Beyond that, The Guardian has been a depressing and inaccurate read since last February. Journalists are not scientists. A two minute peek at something by Ben Goldacre could tell you that.

Beyond that, I'm genuinely concerned about the way your online persona is changing. You appear anxious and overly negative about absolutely everything. If you are struggling with anxiety and depression then I would suggest you spend less time in this sub forum and reading depressing pieces in The Guardian.

However, if this is your way of reacting to what someone else called the "Newsround" level of discussion on the Good News Thread and you are actually fishing, it's in very, very poor taste.

 

[dazzer6666]

If...and it still is a huge if for me......the 12 week gap proves to be a mistake (we're basically in a colossal live trial of the thinking now, including being able to compare gaps lengths across nations - the scientists must be loving it), it actually isn't that difficult at all to tweak the programme and switch to second jabs within days - simply means the next wave of people to be called in will be those needing second jabs rather than the next group of first-dosers. Clearly this will extend the period to get everyone vaccinated but at 500k/day (seemingly where we're headed) it would mean all those in the first 4 vulnerable groups (15m) could be second-jabbed in a month or so. As we know that nails something like 90% of the hospitalizations and deaths.

 

[crodonilson]

I don't understand your wording there, sorry. "The antibodies it produces". If you mean the body in reaction to that strain of the actual virus then it's immaterial to the vaccine. The vaccine will produce the antibodies. Beyond that, The Guardian has been a depressing and inaccurate read since last February. Journalists are not scientists. A two minute peek at something by Ben Goldacre could tell you that.

Beyond that, I'm genuinely concerned about the way your online persona is changing. You appear anxious and overly negative about absolutely everything. If you are struggling with anxiety and depression then I would suggest you spend less time in this sub forum and reading depressing pieces in The Guardian.

However, if this is your way of reacting to what someone else called the "Newsround" level of discussion on the Good News Thread and you are actually fishing, it's in very, very poor taste.

I won't lie, this petrifies me, I know of young people who have been struck down by it and are struggling weeks and months on and I know of relatives of friends and colleagues who have died from it, as a morbidly obese middle aged man I fear that I would really struggle if I was affected by it. I'm not suffering with depression but I do get anrgy about the blase approach of anti lockdowners and the governments poor management of this. How the last year has gone I certainly believe the best approach from a mental standpoint is expect the worst but hope for the best.

 

[nicko31]

If...and it still is a huge if for me......the 12 week gap proves to be a mistake (we're basically in a colossal live trial of the thinking now, including being able to compare gaps lengths across nations - the scientists must be loving it), it actually isn't that difficult at all to tweak the programme and switch to second jabs within days - simply means the next wave of people to be called in will be those needing second jabs rather than the next group of first-dosers. Clearly this will extend the period to get everyone vaccinated but at 500k/day (seemingly where we're headed) it would mean all those in the first 4 vulnerable groups (15m) could be second-jabbed in a month or so. As we know that nails something like 90% of the hospitalizations and deaths.

The fact of the matter is for every 1 Pfzier dose ordered we have 5 Oxford, would it make that much difference if they U-turned?

 

[dsr-burnley]

I was told at school that if I did a 2 year course I should get 10 O levels. After a year of the course, I hadn't got any O levels at all. Was this a signt hat the course didn't work?

That's how people are carrying on about this Israeli study. The Israeli study is after 14 days, and it has not had the results that we hoped a 21 day period would bring. Is that because (a) the estimate of 21 day effect was wrong, or (b) 14 days is not long enough to judge how much effect a 21 day period has?

Here are some figures we know:

Pfizer estimate of single does effectiveness over 11 days = 0% (backed up by Israeli study)
Israeli estimate of single dose effectiveness over 14 days = 33%
UK Government estimate of single dose effectiveness over 21 days = 89%

Is that enough data to prove the UK Government estimate wrong? Of course not.

If we want to judge whether the 21 day estimate is right, then perhaps waiting for some 21 day figures might be a good starting point.

 

[dazzer6666]

The fact of the matter is for every 1 Pfzier dose ordered we have 5 Oxford, would it make that much difference if they U-turned?

Probably not, but it makes things even easier - much smaller number to recall earlier for their second jab........I understand there are fewer worries with the O/AZ vaccine as it's been tested more with a longer interval.