The ultimate REFERENDUM thread

[Maldini]

There are 7 countries waiting to join the EU including Turkey with their 70 million people.

I think if this referendum took place in about 3-5 years the leave camp would have a clear lead.

If we remain and sadly I think we will,in 10/15 years there will be plenty of people who voted remain
who will seriously regret it.I truly think that.

 

[drew]

There's nothing in your links that indicates the figures are as a result of the UK being in the EU.
There's no real way of knowing the economic situation if we left the EU either.
So called experts are caught out all the time and as with 2008 usually don't see the big ones coming.

As for dictators,it's not that I don't like what I hear it's that I don't like the idea we have a goverment who are bullying and
controlling people with nonsense.People like you are seemingly falling for it.

Even if it could be proved we would be worse off financially I really don't care.At all.

Remember those who panicked when we said we would not join the Euro?Look what happened.

Sorry but how can anyone produce statistics about trade on the basis that we aren't in the EU. It is a hypothetical situation whether you consider the scenario over the last 8 years or so or the next.8,10 or 15 ye

The Stay campaign are no more bullying thaN the Leave one. It's just that you don't like what the have suggested. You are under no pressure from the 'stay' campaign to vote for them just as you are under no pressure to vote the other way. It's your choice and you don't get that in a dictatorship. I'm not falling for the bullying I just don't accept what I think are weak arguments from Brexit. I don't like the way stats have been presented by the likes of Osborne but I do believe economically we are better off in. You don't. That's a difference of opinion.

 

[Maldini]

Sorry but how can anyone produce statistics about trade on the basis that we aren't in the EU. It is a hypothetical situation whether you consider the scenario over the last 8 years or so or the next.8,10 or 15 ye

The Stay campaign are no more bullying thaN the Leave one. It's just that you don't like what the have suggested. You are under no pressure from the 'stay' campaign to vote for them just as you are under no pressure to vote the other way. It's your choice and you don't get that in a dictatorship. I'm not falling for the bullying I just don't accept what I think are weak arguments from Brexit. I don't like the way stats have been presented by the likes of Osborne but I do believe economically we are better off in. You don't. That's a difference of opinion.

You believe we are better off economically but you have no idea of really knowing.I'm talking about statistics regards trade based on the fact we are in the EU.How do we know the figures you posted would not be better if we were out.We don't know as much as we don't know what effect being in the EU has.

I haven't heard bullying and fear coming from the leave campaign in the same was as from the stay campaign.You're right I am under no pressure from the stay campaign but that's because I'm not weak or ignorant.Many of those who are will fall for the nonsense.It's unfair that the goverment are exploiting them.

People like yourself who want to remain are obsessed with the financial aspect.I'm not.As I said I don't care if we would be financially worse off.
You also ignore the fact an increased population is taking us to the brink.Right now there are many families being dissapointed
that their children have not been accepted into the schools they prefer.That is partly as a result of more and more applications
due to a higher population.

When you walk through your high street and don't hear any english accents,when you have to wait 6 weeks for a doctors appointment,
when you have to wait months and months for an operation,when you're the victim of a crime commited by a migrant then maybe
you might wish you voted leave.

 

[Maldini]

As I said,I fear this referendum is 3-5 years too early for the leave campaign.

 

[drew]

You believe we are better off economically but you have no idea of really knowing.I'm talking about statistics regards trade based on the fact we are in the EU.How do we know the figures you posted would not be better if we were out.We don't know as much as we don't know what effect being in the EU has.

I haven't heard bullying and fear coming from the leave campaign in the same was as from the stay campaign.You're right I am under no pressure from the stay campaign but that's because I'm not weak or ignorant.Many of those who are will fall for the nonsense.It's unfair that the goverment are exploiting them.

People like yourself who want to remain are obsessed with the financial aspect.I'm not.As I said I don't care if we would be financially worse off.
You also ignore the fact an increased population is taking us to the brink.Right now there are many families being dissapointed
that their children have not been accepted into the schools they prefer.That is partly as a result of more and more applications
due to a higher population.

When you walk through your high street and don't hear any english accents,when you have to wait 6 weeks for a doctors appointment,
when you have to wait months and months for an operation,when you're the victim of a crime commited by a migrant then maybe
you might wish you voted leave.

First of all you made comments about not having facts. All I did was post details of the facts that we know, ie what trade we currently have with the EU and elsewhere. Now your moaning again. It is only possible to provide statistics about what we actually do whilst currently in the EU. Everything else is speculation and therefore not fact.

So your last paragraph is not trying to put fear in those wanted to stay in!!!

The main protagonists in each camp are just as bad as each other.

Just for the record, where do you live that you don't hear any English accents. I know I don't have to wait for 6 weeks to see a doctor. At our surgery you can get to see a doctor the same day for emergencies and only up to two weeks for an appointment. I've never been a victim of a crime committed by a migrant and, to be honest, don't know anyone that has. Back in the 1980s before all this 'immigration and free movement was an issue' I waited 18 months for knee surgery. Your experiences might be completely different or they may even just be anecdotal.

You say I'm obsessed with financial element, that isn't true although it does play a major factor. I could equally suggest that a lot of the Brexit supporters are obsessed with just sovereignty!

 

[The Antikythera Mechanism]

It's no wonder these two want to stay in the EU, so they can carry on pulling on the European gravy train

 

[Maldini]

First of all you made comments about not having facts. All I did was post details of the facts that we know, ie what trade we currently have with the EU and elsewhere. Now your moaning again. It is only possible to provide statistics about what we actually do whilst currently in the EU. Everything else is speculation and therefore not fact.

So your last paragraph is not trying to put fear in those wanted to stay in!!!

The main protagonists in each camp are just as bad as each other.

Just for the record, where do you live that you don't hear any English accents. I know I don't have to wait for 6 weeks to see a doctor. At our surgery you can get to see a doctor the same day for emergencies and only up to two weeks for an appointment. I've never been a victim of a crime committed by a migrant and, to be honest, don't know anyone that has. Back in the 1980s before all this 'immigration and free movement was an issue' I waited 18 months for knee surgery. Your experiences might be completely different or they may even just be anecdotal.

You say I'm obsessed with financial element, that isn't true although it does play a major factor. I could equally suggest that a lot of the Brexit supporters are obsessed with just sovereignty!

As I said,there is no way of proving that the figures you posted were achieved because we are part of the EU.Yes you gave me some figures but you didn't prove them.There is no way of knowing if we would fair better being out of the EU.Yes you are obsessed with the financial side because that is what you and most remain people talk about.

My last paragraph was not putting the fear into anyone.The beauty of what I said there and what Brexit campaigners are saying is that it stands to reason that is what will happen.If you increase the population and you don't make sure the infrastructure will cope then you will have problems with housing,school/nursery/university places.Doctor/hospital waiting time.You think differently though so please tell me how an increase in population will have no negative impact on the UK?Thanks.
As for me,I'm already having to wait 3/4 weeks to see my doctor.

As for crime,when you accept migrants who cannot speak english,who have no skills,then some will resort to crime to pay for things.
Check out Romanian pickpockets as one example.When you have migrants who have a different way of treating women you will get incidents such as in Cologne.

I'm waiting for the Remain campaign to come up with some positive reasons as to why we should not leave the EU.I would like to see their negative campaign turn to a positive one.I would like it if somehow it was able to be proved that being in the EU had this effect financially and that we would be this much worse off if we left but I doubt very much it's possible to do so.Therefore the Remain and Leave camps are just playing the guessing game so have to go with what they believe might be the best way to go.

None of us really know however as I have said the one area which cannot be argued is that if we remain then the population will increase beyond what we can cope with in a number of areas.The Remain campaign on the other hand have no areas that they can point to and say this is fact.

 

[sten_super]

My last paragraph was not putting the fear into anyone.The beauty of what I said there and what Brexit campaigners are saying is that it stands to reason that is what will happen.If you increase the population and you don't make sure the infrastructure will cope then you will have problems with housing,school/nursery/university places.Doctor/hospital waiting time.You think differently though so please tell me how an increase in population will have no negative impact on the UK?Thanks.
As for me,I'm already having to wait 3/4 weeks to see my doctor.

I'm waiting for the Remain campaign to come up with some positive reasons as to why we should not leave the EU.I would like to see their negative campaign turn to a positive one.I would like it if somehow it was able to be proved that being in the EU had this effect financially and that we would be this much worse off if we left but I doubt very much it's possible to do so.Therefore the Remain and Leave camps are just playing the guessing game so have to go with what they believe might be the best way to go.

None of us really know however as I have said the one area which cannot be argued is that if we remain then the population will increase beyond what we can cope with in a number of areas.The Remain campaign on the other hand have no areas that they can point to and say this is fact.

I don't think anyone would argue that the quality of most infrastructure (in the broadest sense of the word) in this country has declined in recent years, and clearly the population growth plays a major role in this. What I would say is that the vast majority of evidence shows that the average immigrant is a net payer to the government, rather than a net receiver. So the question then is why is the government not choosing to spend the extra money that it's receiving on infrastructure, such as training more doctors, building more schools, etc? I'd argue it's a failure of funding and policy, rather than due solely to population increases.

On your positive messages from Remain - other EU member governments (and therefore ultimately the EC and the parliament) are typically more socially progressive and less laissez faire than the UK, at least in recent history. So staying in the EU would (all things being equal) help to preserve existing worker rights (such as the Working Time Directive) and other progressive policies (such as reducing carbon emissions). This obviously isn't everyone's cup of tea, but it is mine, and is one of the reasons that I'm in favour of staying in. Does that count as a positive message?

 

[drew]

As I said,there is no way of proving that the figures you posted were achieved because we are part of the EU.Yes you gave me some figures but you didn't prove them.There is no way of knowing if we would fair better being out of the EU.Yes you are obsessed with the financial side because that is what you and most remain people talk about.

My last paragraph was not putting the fear into anyone.The beauty of what I said there and what Brexit campaigners are saying is that it stands to reason that is what will happen.If you increase the population and you don't make sure the infrastructure will cope then you will have problems with housing,school/nursery/university places.Doctor/hospital waiting time.You think differently though so please tell me how an increase in population will have no negative impact on the UK?Thanks.
As for me,I'm already having to wait 3/4 weeks to see my doctor.

As for crime,when you accept migrants who cannot speak english,who have no skills,then some will resort to crime to pay for things.
Check out Romanian pickpockets as one example.When you have migrants who have a different way of treating women you will get incidents such as in Cologne.

I'm waiting for the Remain campaign to come up with some positive reasons as to why we should not leave the EU.I would like to see their negative campaign turn to a positive one.I would like it if somehow it was able to be proved that being in the EU had this effect financially and that we would be this much worse off if we left but I doubt very much it's possible to do so.Therefore the Remain and Leave camps are just playing the guessing game so have to go with what they believe might be the best way to go.

None of us really know however as I have said the one area which cannot be argued is that if we remain then the population will increase beyond what we can cope with in a number of areas.The Remain campaign on the other hand have no areas that they can point to and say this is fact.

I really am at a loss!!! In the post below you asked for facts instead of theories and all I attempted to do was state that the facts are the trade we do now. Anything else is speculation. We can't know whether we would have traded better or worse had we not joined the EEC in the first place. You don't seem to be able to grasp that concept.

As to the other comments, I'll just assume they're all anecdotal and not your own personal experience (other than your wait for a doctors).

With regard to the impact of immigrants, here are two views for consideration.

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/1114/051114-economic-impact-EU-immigration

http://www.economist.com/news/brita...ce-research-what-have-immigrants-ever-done-us

As for your comment regarding increase in population, that is speculation and not fact. You seem to have trouble identifying the difference!!!!

As much as we criticise countries with dictators such as North Korea I ask myself are we any different.Our goverment is churning out project fear and telling us all kinds of nonsense to get us to believe what they want us to believe. Isn't that what dictatorships do. Osborne now plucking the figure of £4300 out of thin air.

Can the goverment really not just give us facts instead of theories. Can they not produce technical data, figures,graphs,or any other kind of factual proof whether it's in their favour or not.Should they even be taking sides.Shouldn't they just tell us the good and the bad.

What this has shown me very clearly is that you cannot trust anyone.Not even your own goverment. This is democracy. Sad.

 

[sir albion]

As I said,I fear this referendum is 3-5 years too early for the leave campaign.

No chance...The real people will vote "out"and one big party will commence

 

[Horton's halftime iceberg]

It's no wonder these two want to stay in the EU, so they can carry on pulling on the European gravy trainView attachment 73806

Fair call but at least they do something for it, don't forget to add in UKIP MEPs as well who have received £4.7 million over the past three year in payments wages expenses etc. Farage is also calling for MPs wages to raise to over 100,000 if we leave EU, he needs to fund the party somehow.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I don't think anyone would argue that the quality of most infrastructure (in the broadest sense of the word) in this country has declined in recent years, and clearly the population growth plays a major role in this. What I would say is that the vast majority of evidence shows that the average immigrant is a net payer to the government, rather than a net receiver. So the question then is why is the government not choosing to spend the extra money that it's receiving on infrastructure, such as training more doctors, building more schools, etc? I'd argue it's a failure of funding and policy, rather than due solely to population increases.

On your positive messages from Remain - other EU member governments (and therefore ultimately the EC and the parliament) are typically more socially progressive and less laissez faire than the UK, at least in recent history. So staying in the EU would (all things being equal) help to preserve existing worker rights (such as the Working Time Directive) and other progressive policies (such as reducing carbon emissions). This obviously isn't everyone's cup of tea, but it is mine, and is one of the reasons that I'm in favour of staying in. Does that count as a positive message?

What vast majority of evidence would that be then? As usual it all depends on what assumptions are made. The situation could best be described as mixed or if you look at some studies a significant negative Net fiscal impact.

http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/fiscal-impact-immigration-uk

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Fair call but at least they do something for it, don't forget to add in UKIP MEPs as well who have received £4.7 million over the past three year in payments wages expenses etc. Farage is also calling for MPs wages to raise to over 100,000 if we leave EU, he needs to fund the party somehow.

Still not as bad as what those two get.

 

[Maldini]

I don't think anyone would argue that the quality of most infrastructure (in the broadest sense of the word) in this country has declined in recent years, and clearly the population growth plays a major role in this. What I would say is that the vast majority of evidence shows that the average immigrant is a net payer to the government, rather than a net receiver. So the question then is why is the government not choosing to spend the extra money that it's receiving on infrastructure, such as training more doctors, building more schools, etc? I'd argue it's a failure of funding and policy, rather than due solely to population increases.

On your positive messages from Remain - other EU member governments (and therefore ultimately the EC and the parliament) are typically more socially progressive and less laissez faire than the UK, at least in recent history. So staying in the EU would (all things being equal) help to preserve existing worker rights (such as the Working Time Directive) and other progressive policies (such as reducing carbon emissions). This obviously isn't everyone's cup of tea, but it is mine, and is one of the reasons that I'm in favour of staying in. Does that count as a positive message?

You say the average immigrant is a net payer to the goverment as though well that's ok then. It's not.We do not gain extra tax from immigrants we infact get less.If Stanoslav Picazski wasn't working in a factory making boxes then Stan Pickford from england would be doing that job and paying tax also.Basically from immigrants they are just replacing the tax we would have received from British workers.However as immigrants have driven wages down that means infact they are paying less tax.Then you have the many immigrants working cash in hand and they are paying NO tax.Some also send some of their money home so therefore they spend less in this country than a British worker might do.They are also prepared to work for worse conditions because to a point they have to so therefore they drive the standard down.
If I hear anyone else on TV bang on about immigrants contributing to the economy I'll throw my LCD out the window.However I'll buy another and not send the money to Poland or somehwere like that so it's not all bad.
Then you have the Remain campaign banging on about how many jobs being in the EU creates.Maybe it does who knows however here's the catch.THOSE JOBS ARE SWALLOWED UP BY IMMIGRANTS.So what's the point.

Personally I believe the UK is socially progressive.If you look at women's rights for example, that has really advanced and because our goverments have listened to the women's groups and protesters even if at the expense of men who are now ridiculed in this country.

 

[drew]

You say the average immigrant is a net payer to the goverment as though well that's ok then. It's not.We do not gain extra tax from immigrants we infact get less.If Stanoslav Picazski wasn't working in a factory making boxes then Stan Pickford from england would be doing that job and paying tax also.Basically from immigrants they are just replacing the tax we would have received from British workers.However as immigrants have driven wages down that means infact they are paying less tax.Then you have the many immigrants working cash in hand and they are paying NO tax.Some also send some of their money home so therefore they spend less in this country than a British worker might do.They are also prepared to work for worse conditions because to a point they have to so therefore they drive the standard down.
If I hear anyone else on TV bang on about immigrants contributing to the economy I'll throw my LCD out the window.However I'll buy another and not send the money to Poland or somehwere like that so it's not all bad.
Then you have the Remain campaign banging on about how many jobs being in the EU creates.Maybe it does who knows however here's the catch.THOSE JOBS ARE SWALLOWED UP BY IMMIGRANTS.So what's the point.

Personally I believe the UK is socially progressive.If you look at women's rights for example, that has really advanced and because our goverments has listened to
the women's groups and protesters even if at the expense of men who are now ridiculed in this country.

I think we've got it now. You don't like immigrants.

 

[Maldini]

I really am at a loss!!! In the post below you asked for facts instead of theories and all I attempted to do was state that the facts are the trade we do now. Anything else is speculation. We can't know whether we would have traded better or worse had we not joined the EEC in the first place. You don't seem to be able to grasp that concept.
!

No I grasped the concept.I asked you to show me how we have benefitted from being in the EU and you can't.
On the other hand I have pointed out where we have not benefitted.Where our membership has had a negative impact.

 

[Maldini]

I think we've got it now. You don't like immigrants.

Here's the catch,I'm half italian.My parents are immigrants.I have plenty of
cousins who are immigrants.

What you said was cheap and easy.You have dismissed my valid arguments and hidden behind that lazy sentence.

 

[pastafarian]

I think we've got it now. You don't like immigrants.

for quite a few years now people have raised their concerns over matters like lower wages,lowering of working conditions or even losing out on a job all together.
i thought we were passed the point where the catch all response was shut up you clearly dont like immigrants

obviously not.....very poor

 

[Maldini]

for quite a few years now people have raised their concerns over matters like lower wages,lowering of working conditions or even losing out on a job all together.
i thought we were passed the point where the catch all response was shut up you clearly dont like immigrants

obviously not.....very poor

I had a customer at work who I had had a good relationship with for years turn on me recently calling me a racist.
If you're anti EU then you are called a racist.It's pathetic.Lazy.

 

[Murray 17]

One of the reasons I'll be voting 'out' is the effect immigration is having on the housing market. With net migration at 300k + the demand for housing is at an all time high. 3 bedroom houses in Hove go for £350k+, a lot more in some areas. What are our children going to do? Move away from the South East, or pack into HMOs.

What about school places? Our daughter missed out on our 3 choices, again, because of the large number of overseas children living in Hove.

Yes, I can see that Brexit might be risky for the economy, but it's a risk I'm prepared to take. We cannot go on with the population increasing at the current rate (remembering that these young immigrants will have children too). Freedom of movement is fine in principle, but people don't generally flock to Eastern Europe. When they head to the UK, it's not to Scotland, Wales, or the north of England, it's to London and the South East.