The ultimate REFERENDUM thread

[Soulman]

To say nothing of EDF ... 85 per cent of which is owned by the French government.

And Southern Water is French.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Makes you wonder just how sovereign the British people are - half our utilities foreign-owned and directed, the British motor industry ditto*, multinationals like Amazon and Apple operating here but swerving the tax, the main political parties' whips subverting the principle that MPs represent the people, crazy situations such as the French asking the Germans for agreement to build our nuclear power stations in conjunction with the Chinese and, of course, the gradual (and legitimate I think) dilution of sovereign power caused by our membership of many international bodies including the UN and NATO. Some of it is depressing but not all of it - true sovereign power disappeared from most nations a very long time ago and much of such power is now shared with others. The claim that continued membership of the EU is somehow switching us off from full sovereignty to a nether world of powerlessness is over-gloomy, over-simplified and about a century and a half out of date. If not more.

* Apart from the Morgan Motor Co, of course.

 

[glasfryn]

who would have thought that after saving their backsides twice we would end up being federalised by them.
say yes and we will within 20 years become a small federal state of Europe.
FFS we are the 5th richest nation in the world, why oh why would we need these pigs in (our) trough eating up money that we can well use for ourselves
NO,NO,NO.

 

[El Presidente]

And Southern Water is French.

To be fair France is south.

 

[beorhthelm]

Makes you wonder just how sovereign the British people are .

only if you ignore what sovereignty means: having supreme authority to govern, to set and enforce laws. it doesnt matter who owns what, and to pretend thats the case is just a false argument. the example noted of Amazon and Apple abusing tax law is a fine example of how EU laws subvert our sovereignty as we have to follow the EU laws that allow them to shift their UK operations to other EU nations where tax suits them.

 

[5ways]

Surely a country as large and diverse as the EU has more potential than one the size of the UK?

That doesn't fit with the 'they need us more than we need them' line

 

[5ways]

only if you ignore what sovereignty means: having supreme authority to govern, to set and enforce laws. it doesnt matter who owns what, and to pretend thats the case is just a false argument. the example noted of Amazon and Apple abusing tax law is a fine example of how EU laws subvert our sovereignty as we have to follow the EU laws that allow them to shift their UK operations to other EU nations where tax suits them.

You've set out the advantages of pooling sovereignty in certain areas. None of us can pin down large multinational corps profits individually - we can only do it if we cooperate. Tax avoidance is essentially the abuse of state sovereignty. The EU is coordinating the response to this avoidance, as you would hope. EU laws will precisely stop them doing this, you've got it the wrong way round.

We also are ultimately sovereign, we can leave the EU with a simple act of parliament.

 

[beorhthelm]

You've set out the advantages of pooling sovereignty in certain areas. None of us can pin down large multinational corps profits individually - we can only do it if we cooperate. Tax avoidance is essentially the abuse of state sovereignty. The EU is coordinating the response to this avoidance, as you would hope. EU laws will precisely stop them doing this, you've got it the wrong way round.

im not sure if this is disingenuous or ignorant. Amazon takes advantage of VAT rules to sell in to the UK from Luxembourg precisely because the EU rules allow them, and there are no laws being proposed to stop this, as is fundemental right for a EU based company to operate from where they like in the EU. Apple is a slightly different kettle of fish, but they are again using the rules provided by the EU to channel operations through the Ireland office, as many other companies do, for beneficial tax laws there. the only answer the EU has to this is possible action that some particular arrangments may be amount to state aid, but thats far from clear at this point (any company can and does take advantage, so not a specific company benefiting) and the EU has no plans to change the law on this type of avoidance, because again this goes against the principles of the EU.

they cannot meaningfully challenge these avoidance mechanisms as they have created them, they would have to force companies to be domiciled and tax in each individual country or pay tax in each country they make a sale, both of which would have the companies taking the EU to their own courts for breaking their own rules. like the migrant crisis, and the Euro, the EU makes its own mess and cant clean up after itself.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Surely a country as large and diverse as the EU has more potential than one the size of the UK?

Go visit Greece and then go visit Germany. See if you still say 'a country'.

 

[Hampster Gull]

Can someone post the EU country flag on here, we are missing some patriotism.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Greece won't get better by cutting them out will it!?

But you said 'a country'. Do you still stand by that?

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Greece won't get better by cutting them out will it!?

Greece is in a terrible position due to its cooking the books to cheat it's way into monetary union. It was expedient for German and French leaders to willfully ignore the elephant in the room and one fudge followed another. This has had disastrous implications for the poor people of Greece who were not the ones taking such awful decisions with their future. Bribed by politicians, they are now reaping this unpalatable harvest in the form of austerity and poverty. Germany, coincidentally, has made money on the deal.

I fail to see how any socialist would support the institutions of the EU and it's corrupt regime which has brought such economic misery to some of the poorest people on the continent of Europe. Its reign has been nothing short of a disaster.

 

[Triggaaar]

And Southern Water is French.

Worst company I've ever had the displeasure of dealing with.

 

[Triggaaar]

If we work to make poorer countries better off then we, in turn, will be better off.

That makes no sense. How does sending billions of pounds to other countries make us better off?

 

[beorhthelm]

Greece won't get better by cutting them out will it!?

yes, it will. certainly they would suffer in the short term, but they are doing that anyway. see Iceland, they have recovered their economy and growing well, because they could adjust their economy to suit their situation. Greece cant do that under the yoke of the Euro, they are forced to conform to the will of the ECB (and Bundesbank). its not good to right off and walk away from debts, but it does allow you to sort yourself out in the medium term.

 

[glasfryn]

Why don't the rich in this country just cut out the rest if us? That argument does not work.
If we work to make poorer countries better off then we, in turn, will be better off.

we have to run it pass Europe to trade with our own commonwealth

 

[5ways]

im not sure if this is disingenuous or ignorant. Amazon takes advantage of VAT rules to sell in to the UK from Luxembourg precisely because the EU rules allow them, and there are no laws being proposed to stop this, as is fundemental right for a EU based company to operate from where they like in the EU. Apple is a slightly different kettle of fish, but they are again using the rules provided by the EU to channel operations through the Ireland office, as many other companies do, for beneficial tax laws there. the only answer the EU has to this is possible action that some particular arrangments may be amount to state aid, but thats far from clear at this point (any company can and does take advantage, so not a specific company benefiting) and the EU has no plans to change the law on this type of avoidance, because again this goes against the principles of the EU.

they cannot meaningfully challenge these avoidance mechanisms as they have created them, they would have to force companies to be domiciled and tax in each individual country or pay tax in each country they make a sale, both of which would have the companies taking the EU to their own courts for breaking their own rules. like the migrant crisis, and the Euro, the EU makes its own mess and cant clean up after itself.

Neither. The ability to book profits overseas has been a free lunch for a long time but this is slowly starting to change at a European level. Capital flows like quicksilver around the world, balkanising the tax system would only make this easier. Africa is a great example, there is little capacity to extract multinational taxes from companies that operate there. Our system is obviously better but still full of holes, HMRC does not have the reach to track down corporate profits like the IRS does. New rules have been agreed which clamps down on this:

Under the directive, a multinational company will be obliged to file its country-by-country tax report to the tax authorities of the member state where its parent company is resident.

If its parent company resides outside of the EU, this will be done through the company’s EU subsidiaries. This “secondary reporting” will be mandatory from 2017.

Member states’ tax authorities will have to share this information automatically. The EU’s existing framework for information exchange between tax authorities will be built on to enable this, saving on implementation costs, the council said.

The directive will set deadlines of 12 months after the fiscal year for reports to be filed, and a further three months for automatic exchange.

http://www.publicfinanceinternation...l-backs-tougher-rules-corporate-tax-avoidance

The VAT system does need to change - and that will happen (http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-eu-tax-vat-idUKKCN0WD1BR) but this is missing the woods for the trees. The VAT missing trader avoidance in the EU is widespread and seemingly simple, but to tackle global tax avoidance you can't do it alone.

 

[5ways]

Ireland prepares for Brexit fund influx

Irish central bank believes investment managers will relocate to Dublin if the UK leaves the EU

https://next.ft.com/content/43e2a1ae-e6de-11e5-bc31-138df2ae9ee6

This trickle will become a flood. I don't even want to think about how much money will flow out of the UK the closer we get to Brexit. So destructive and damaging.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Ireland prepares for Brexit fund influx

Irish central bank believes investment managers will relocate to Dublin if the UK leaves the EU

https://next.ft.com/content/43e2a1ae-e6de-11e5-bc31-138df2ae9ee6

This tricle will become a flood. I don't even want to think about how much money will flow out of the UK the closer we get to Brexit. So destructive and damaging.

I would swap this sector tomorrow for a half decent manufacturing base in this country. The finance industry only works for a few at the top. No benefits to the average man on the street. They have made everyone poorer.

 

[£1.99]

Copied from another forum

The British penny.

Just in time to consider before the referendum

The British Penny
European Union Directive No. 456179

In order to bring about further integration with the single European
currency, the Euro, all citizens of the United Kingdom of Great
Britain and Northern Ireland must be made aware that the phrase
"Spending a Penny" is not to be used after 30 April 2016.

From this date onwards, the correct term will be:"Euronating".

It is hoped that this will be a great-relief to everyone. If you have
any questions, just give us a tinkle.