The ultimate REFERENDUM thread

[Captain Sensible]

what about something "along the lines" of the free trade agreement CETA that Boris mentioned yesterday
note i said "along the lines" and not "exactly like"

i have heard quite a few commentators talk about this in the last 24 hrs and havent heard one say its not possible

The EU's no1 request to be in the single market of free trade is the free movement of People, it's in the EU's DNA. We might not like it but it is. If you want to trade inside the single market freely as we currently do, we will always have to pay this price for joining the free trade club. There is no other way. Or we have to pay a price to trade with the EU or come up with trade treaties with each and every member individually, a web of red tape.
I have no idea what 'along the lines' means.

 

[pastafarian]

The EU's no1 request to be in the single market of free trade is the free movement of People, it's in the EU's DNA. We might not like it but it is. If you want to trade inside the single market freely as we currently do, we will always have to pay this price for joining the free trade club. There is no other way. Or we have to pay a price to trade with the EU or come up with trade treaties with each and every member individually, a web of red tape.
I have no idea what 'along the lines' means.

Has Canada signed up to free movement on its FTA with the EU?
i always thought "along the lines" was a common phrase in English,perhaps not then.

 

[brighton fella]

I didn't say I wasn't happy here, I said I don't believe the EU or namely the Germans are gonna allow the UK a no strings free trade deal as they don't need us as much as those wanting OUT want to believe.
On a side note, Brighton is a lovely place to live but unless you live a rural life, a lot of towns and cities are shit holes. Happy now?

ok fair enough but it does get my back up when all i hear from the inners is nothing but negativity, especially when it is aimed at my country, this kind of negativity is partly responsible for the downfall of this country and it sells the idea that Brit's are absolutely incapable of negotiating a trade deal for themselves yet tiny little iceland can.,
i blame our spineless politicians for spreading this negativity about, the bas*ards had been relentlessly putting the Brits down for years by underestimating their true capabilities and labeling them as lazy , the same spineless gits had surrendered away 75% of British law. .

this negativity is extremely unhealthy and some have shamefully caught hold of this ghastly virus but i can fortunately say that i haven't...

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Did I just say boring? Sorry, I meant to say you're a THICKO too. Or, in language you might understand, a

oh dear
regards
DR

 

[brighton fella]

oh dear
regards
DR

i know mate it's pantomime stuff isn't it.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

i know mate it's pantomime stuff isn't it.

powder puff to say the least
regards
DR

 

[brighton fella]

I'm not exactly sure of the point you're making given that PR is very common across the EU while the major British parties, paragons of democratic virtue and guardians of our sovereignty according to the Brexiters, are in favour of first past the post. One very good reason they're in favour of it is because it loosens the connection between the number of votes the serfs - that's you and me - give them and the number of MPs they finish up with. Result? The Labour or Conservative parties need only about a third of the popular vote to get the keys to number 10.

the whole point is first past the post is morally wrong by whoever chooses to push for it .
whether or not PR is common practice within the EU it makes not a bit difference when none of us get a say on anything anyway..

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I'm not exactly sure of the point you're making given that PR is very common across the EU while the major British parties, paragons of democratic virtue and guardians of our sovereignty according to the Brexiters, are in favour of first past the post. One very good reason they're in favour of it is because it loosens the connection between the number of votes the serfs - that's you and me - give them and the number of MPs they finish up with. Result? The Labour or Conservative parties need only about a third of the popular vote to get the keys to number 10.

First past the post ensuring labour or Conservative win?. Yes. And....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dd--tIkrVoA

 

[beorhthelm]

The EU's no1 request to be in the single market of free trade is the free movement of People, it's in the EU's DNA. We might not like it but it is. If you want to trade inside the single market freely as we currently do, we will always have to pay this price for joining the free trade club. There is no other way. Or we have to pay a price to trade with the EU or come up with trade treaties with each and every member individually, a web of red tape.

wrong, the individual members cant negotiate individual trade arrangments. this is one of problems of being in the EU you have to sign up to EU trade deals with non-EU countries, cant forge your own agreement. so we miss out on opportunities to trade with growing nations because the EU has fix a deal, or is not particualr great because of protectionism for some other member.

and the worst case scenario for trading with EU without free trade agreement is we pay tariffs. most are awkward annoyances for trade, you need to cut your prices to compete and that would mean wiping out margins for some. but that is the very worst case, we would still be able to trade with the EU with goods that comply to the relevent standards, as they would already. and on the other hand we could arrange more favourable trade, without EU imposed tariffs, with other countries, so its probably in our favour to have that flexibility especially when the Eurozone countries have such low growth prospects.

 

[cunning fergus]

I'm surprised that an old labour guy would be pro-leave. For me the ideals of soverignity, democracy, controlling our own fate are just that, ideals, whereas what the EU delivers a e tangible laws that are a positive for our nation as a whole. Worker's rights, workplace safety, equality, environmental protections are all areas where the EU is a positive for the populace of the UK and our own government regularlry protests or tries to overturn these rules in favour of business.

Really?

I think that is because you have allowed your beliefs to override factual reality.

Just because the EU has instituted laws to protect workers does not mean the very same instruction isn't working to undermine them on the other side. The consequences of free movement of labour in the UK is a race to the bottom for workers, and this is proved by the surge in zero hour contracts and minimum wage jobs.

People like you would have been shouting at other passengers climbing in the lifeboats of the Titanic that all was well, the vessel is unsinkable, pointing at some article in the press.

Similarly, so the EU's record on environmental legislation is not what it appears.......

http://blogs.wsj.com/brussels/2015/09/25/the-vw-scandal-how-much-did-the-european-commission-know/

Acting in favour of business too, the very thing you are worried about.......

http://www.euronews.com/2016/02/03/vw-scandal-eu-deal-allows-vehicles-to-exceed-pollution-limits/

I know, all is well, you read that somewhere.

 

[sparkie]

...
People like you would have been shouting at other passengers climbing in the lifeboats of the Titanic that all was well, the vessel is unsinkable, pointing at some article in the press.
...

Blimey.

Offensive comments like this are possibly why only a small subset of NSC users bother with posting on EU threads now.

When did you last comment on BHAFC, by the way ?

 

[cunning fergus]

I agree with the reference that you cite, and parts of your argument. Where I'd disagree is in the diagnosis of the problem; the dislike of the EU (due to poorer perceived outcomes for the working class) is IMHO part of the wider issue of globalisation (which has led to worse outcomes for the working class, at least in the short term). It is globalisation (rather than EU membership) that has seen British jobs outsourced (some to the EU, some to places like India) or taken by immigrants; it is globalisation that means that capital and labour (at the top end) is more mobile than ever, and which has led to the low-taxation world in which we now live. The EU is (wrongly, IMHO) seen as an article of globalisation, when in fact it's political views seem generally more socialist than those of the typical UK voter (and certainly the current UK government). It's lead action on climate change, worker rights and driving innovation where the UK has belatedly (and sometimes begrudgingly) followed, while also giving a platform for the UK to share it's best practice with European partners.

If you agree with my points but you think the EU is not a key part of globalisation then I don't know where we go.........that argument holds no water at all.

I note however you refer to the "working class" not benefitting from globalisation, but that is not true is it?

The Indian workers at call centres will be benefitting at the expense of their British working class peers even if those on the calls are not all working class as we would consider it?

EU nationals moving here in their millions to undercut pay for the British working class are also benefitting from the employment and associated benefits on offer even if to middle class types like you think it's impossible to derive wealth from such low rates of income.

I note previously on this thread you made reference to how you felt you had more in common with Europeans than your own British countrymen and women.

I completely believe the honesty you express in that sentiment, it's why you are on here running the argument that you could not give a shit about the fate of the British working class.

You are not alone on here (or in the UK) sadly many of your middle class British counterparts has exactly the same view............it's why you are f@cking shithouse Tories.

You may feel that's harsh because you have an internationalist view, but I'm sorry that still hangs the British working class out to dry. Hence the collapse of the labour vote in many traditional working class constituencies.

 

[cunning fergus]

When I was up at Preston chatting to fellow fans..........

 

[cunning fergus]

Why do the Unions support the EU then? Why does Corbyn? The EU has actual socialists in it, who fight for workers rights and protect workers through workplace safety regulation, time directives etc.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...n-mccluskey-trade-union-support-eu-referendum

Also when the Labour party was avowedly anti-EU they got destroyed. When Blair was able to flip the Tories into being the anti-EU party Labour succeeded.

Not all unions do, and evidently neither does their membership. Even the unions that do are not supporters of the status quo and want change, yet that only recognises they disagree with it now. They are no different from the Labour MPs who say they represent the traditional British working class.

Corbyn and McDonnell are part of old Labour tradition and have been hostile to the EU for years, for both its lack of democracy and pro big business ideology. MPs like them and Skinner have regularly voted against EU Directives or abstained.

They would advocate the re-institution of clause IV which was removed by Blair........it couldn't stay if you wanted to embrace the EU as nationalised industries are illegal under EU competition law.

It was when the Labour Party moved towards conservatism and abandoned their socialist roots, and why unions like the RMT turned their back on the Labour Party to remain true to their eurosceptic roots.

It's why Blair said this weekend he would be toxic for the IN campaign.

Notwithstanding his role in Iraq he has has done more to destroy traditional working class communities than Thatcher.

The people who voted him in were Tories..........if the top hat fits?

 

[jgmcdee]

...nationalised industries are illegal under EU competition law.

No, they aren't. What a strange assertion.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

as nationalised industries are illegal under EU competition law.

Has anyone told the French? SNCF is France's national state-owned railway company and manages the rail traffic in France and the Principality of Monaco.

 

[GT49er]

Surely a country as large and diverse as the EU has more potential than one the size of the UK?

The EU is not a country - though clearly it wants to be: The United States of Europe. That alone is sufficient reason for us getting out as fast as possible - waffly agreements to leave us out of the unification process aren't worth the hot air they're spoken with.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Blimey.

Offensive comments like this are possibly why only a small subset of NSC users bother with posting on EU threads now.

When did you last comment on BHAFC, by the way ?

The poster concerned enjoys chucking in a personal crack or two, although he'll probably call me a **** again for mentioning it.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Has anyone told the French? SNCF is France's national state-owned railway company and manages the rail traffic in France and the Principality of Monaco.

To say nothing of EDF ... 85 per cent of which is owned by the French government.

 

[Soulman]

Corbyn Makes Case For Brexit. Confusing for the Labour supporters who want to stay in.