The ultimate REFERENDUM thread

[Herr Tubthumper]

Plenty of ignorance concerning Turkey here. Even with their more recent political history they are by far the most moderate Muslim nation in the world and have no truck with ISIS. I would venture there are more ISIS supporters in this country than in Turkey.

That said Turkish membership of the EU is a very long way off and probably never going to happen with the increasing authoritarianism of their Government, and the fact that Cyprus at least would always veto their membership

All very true.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Plenty of ignorance concerning Turkey here. Even with their more recent political history they are by far the most moderate Muslim nation in the world and have no truck with ISIS. I would venture there are more ISIS supporters in this country than in Turkey.

That said Turkish membership of the EU is a very long way off and probably never going to happen with the increasing authoritarianism of their Government, and the fact that Cyprus at least would always veto their membership

Completely true but that's not going to stop IDS saying, as he has this week, that the eastern border of the EU has effectively "been moved from Greece to Syria". By what bizarre calculation is this the case? Or is it just more scaremongering from the gent who tells us we're more likely to have our heads chopped off if we vote In?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Plenty of ignorance concerning Turkey here. Even with their more recent political history they are by far the most moderate Muslim nation in the world and have no truck with ISIS. I would venture there are more ISIS supporters in this country than in Turkey.

That said Turkish membership of the EU is a very long way off and probably never going to happen with the increasing authoritarianism of their Government, and the fact that Cyprus at least would always veto their membership

Mmmmm can you please define 'moderate' Islam? It could be argued that Turkey's long tradition of secularism enforced by the military has never been weaker. Of course ISIS has little if any established presence in Turkey but there are 3 million plus refugees who could be anybody and a constant flow of ISIS supporting individuals both in and out of Turkey/Syria.

I agree Turkey is not going to get full membership anytime soon although it becomes more likely after recent events but that isn't the point. The EU's borders are only as secure as the weakest link thanks to Schengen. The imminent/likely approval of Turkey's entire population getting visa free travel will further increase the security risk in an already shockingly inadequate system.

 

[crookie]

Mmmmm can you please define 'moderate' Islam? It could be argued that Turkey's long tradition of secularism enforced by the military has never been weaker. Of course ISIS has little if any established presence in Turkey but there are 3 million plus refugees who could be anybody and a constant flow of ISIS supporting individuals both in and out of Turkey/Syria.

I agree Turkey is not going to get full membership anytime soon although it becomes more likely after recent events but that isn't the point. The EU's borders are only as secure as the weakest link thanks to Schengen. The imminent/likely approval of Turkey's entire population getting visa free travel will further increase the security risk in an already shockingly inadequate system.

I did qualify what I said as I acknowledge recent political developments have pushed Turkey in a less secular direction although I believe that the Turkish Army will stand up if there is serious danger if the Govt goes down an anti secular route. It is not Turkeys fault that it has accepted millions of refugees many of extremist persuasion. With the civil war next door could they really have closed their borders?

Turkey is caught in a perfect storm atm. Under pressure from every external border area. Difficult times, easy to criticise

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I did qualify what I said as I acknowledge recent political developments have pushed Turkey in a less secular direction although I believe that the Turkish Army will stand up if there is serious danger if the Govt goes down an anti secular route. It is not Turkeys fault that it has accepted millions of refugees many of extremist persuasion. With the civil war next door could they really have closed their borders?

Turkey is caught in a perfect storm atm. Under pressure from every external border area. Difficult times, easy to criticise

I wasn't criticizing Turkey just highlighting the inevitable increased security risk which is a direct consequence of continued EU membership.

 

[crookie]

I wasn't criticizing Turkey just highlighting the inevitable increased security risk which is a direct consequence of continued EU membership.

I agree with you on most things on this thread, but I just don't believe our membership of the EU makes us more likely to suffer from a terrorist attack. Our attacks like Lee Rigby and the underground attacks by were British Nationals on the whole.

 

[The Rivet]

I agree with you on most things on this thread, but I just don't believe our membership of the EU makes us more likely to suffer from a terrorist attack. Our attacks like Lee Rigby and the underground attacks by were British Nationals on the whole.

Immigration in a federal Europe will be decided in Berlin. You like what you see so far? Your point about Lee Rigby, both Killers of Nigerian descent. British Nationals in 'law' certainly (maybe) but not in thought. Don't be so naïve.

 

[Soulman]

I agree with you on most things on this thread, but I just don't believe our membership of the EU makes us more likely to suffer from a terrorist attack. Our attacks like Lee Rigby and the underground attacks by were British Nationals on the whole.

The debate from you and Cameron seems to have focused on terrorists coming here etc. I think most are aware that the terrorists here have come from within, and it is not one of the main issues of those wanting out, even though staying in COULD lead to terrorists among those coming in.
The other more important reasons have been well documented but are put aside.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I agree with you on most things on this thread, but I just don't believe our membership of the EU makes us more likely to suffer from a terrorist attack. Our attacks like Lee Rigby and the underground attacks by were British Nationals on the whole.

True they have been home grown as have most of the ISIS inspired attacks in Europe but some of the terrorists involved in the Paris atrocities travelled to Syria for training and some gained entry into Europe via migrant/refugee routes. The fact most ISIS related terrorism is carried out by EU nationals across Europe should perhaps give us pause for thought as all EU nationals have free movement of travel to this country with minimal checks. The head of Interpol and others have admitted thousands of extremists/terrorists have entered Europe exploiting the migrant crisis which I would think increases the likelihood of terrorist attack.

 

[The Rivet]

True they have been home grown as have most of the ISIS inspired attacks in Europe but some of the terrorists involved in the Paris atrocities travelled to Syria for training and some gained entry into Europe via migrant/refugee routes. The fact most ISIS related terrorism is carried out by EU nationals across Europe should perhaps give us pause for thought as all EU nationals have free movement of travel to this country with minimal checks. The head of Interpol and others have admitted thousands of extremists/terrorists have entered Europe exploiting the migrant crisis which I would think increases the likelihood of terrorist attack.

Which is the correct assumption.

 

[pastafarian]

Worried about Turkey when half a million are here already? That will turn your vote? Locking the door when the horse has bolted! Really is nonsensical to worry about Turkey when we already have thousands here and the economic disaster of leaving is a much bigger issue. Even if Turkey were given access to schengen they still couldn't come here. As for that 'turning your vote' I think you've been an outer since Farage started spouting his vomit, or maybe long before that.

have a read what i wrote again.
Its not my vote that is being turned it is a friends.

A friend who actually said to me yesterday he has switched and is now OUT because the direction the EU is heading(and will eventually achieve years down the line) with regards to Turkey is completely devoid of what was originally envisioned for the european union many moons ago.

 

[Hampster Gull]

Immigration in a federal Europe will be decided in Berlin. You like what you see so far? Your point about Lee Rigby, both Killers of Nigerian descent. British Nationals in 'law' certainly (maybe) but not in thought. Don't be so naïve.

They were British. And descendents for the UK's Commonwealth...

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

My problem with this kind of argument against staying in isn't because I think the EU are in any way wrong to have these kind of laws, but because it's an argument based on laws you like. What happens if the EU issues laws that you don't like? Does that make them worth leaving in that case?

There's no law the EU can enforce that we wouldn't be able to create ourselves anyway. A much better argument for staying in is the cooperation in science and the universities. That would be much harder for the UK to make happen by ourselves. But environmental laws? We could do that on our own.

I see what you're saying, but the EU has a 40-year record of strong environmental legislation aimed at safeguarding habitats, species and preventing environmental damage, that largely goes beyond anything our own government (from both sides) has introduced, and which our government regularly challenges, or is challenged on. Most believe a brexit would leave to weakening of these regulations, this government is already trying to make it harder to bring environmental cases to court in the UK.

Secondly, much of the EU environmental legislation works at a multi-national level, because these issues cross domestic borders. Us making a law, or another country making a law, doesn't work unless all countries follow it. The Common Fisheries Policy sets national quotas to avoid over-fishing, the Birds Directive aims to protect migratory species, other issues of air quality, water quality, invasive species, use of pesticides in traded veg, so on and so forth, are not just domestic issues.

Cooperation in science and the universities, absolutely,

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Your point about Lee Rigby, both Killers of Nigerian descent. British Nationals in 'law' certainly (maybe) but not in thought. Don't be so naïve.

You have totally missed [MENTION=27870]crookie[/MENTION] 's point. His point was that they are British nationals.

 

[Captain Sensible]

You have totally missed [MENTION=27870]crookie[/MENTION] 's point. His point was that they are British nationals.

Yeah British nationals of decent from a non EU country. It Amazes me that the EU is apparently at fault for all our immigration woes yet up until 2 years ago every single year, the immigration from non EU was a bigger number than EU. Even today it's a close call between the two. The U.K. has always accepted very high numbers of non EU immigration and will continue to do so in the EU or not.

 

[Soulman]

Yeah British nationals of decent from a non EU country. It Amazes me that the EU is apparently at fault for all our immigration woes yet up until 2 years ago every single year, the immigration from non EU was a bigger number than EU. Even today it's a close call between the two. The U.K. has always accepted very high numbers of non EU immigration and will continue to do so in the EU or not.

I think most of us have cottoned on to the point that more non EU immigrants come in, which is why some want the policy of CONTROLLED immigration. That means CONTROL of immigration whether EU or non EU.
If it is not worrying to see NON EU citizens moving through Europe in massive numbers and the acceptance by some EU countries to open their borders (with Frau Merkal the orchestrata) and try to dictate how many migrants this country takes, then i don't know what is.
Again this is a point in the Referendum that is just a part of what is wrong with being in the EU.

 

[pastafarian]

I think most of us have cottoned on to the point that more non EU immigrants come in, which is why some want the policy of CONTROLLED immigration. That means CONTROL of immigration whether EU or non EU.
If it is not worrying to see NON EU citizens moving through Europe in massive numbers and the acceptance by some EU countries to open their borders (with Frau Merkal the orchestrata) and try to dictate how many migrants this country takes, then i don't know what is.
Again this is a point in the Referendum that is just a part of what is wrong with being in the EU.

Fortunately as you know,we can resist at the moment with our opt outs Merkels great plan of swamping other parts of Europe with people applying for asylum because Germany cant cope with the influx alone of processing people and has to outsource it(should have thought about that you daft cow)

However not everyone is as lucky as us,you are right this is being forced down some countries throats,and it has to be worrying this is how the EU acts,if we stay in is this how we can expect to be treated years down the line?

PM Viktor Orban address last week was one of the strongest attacks I have heard on Brussels from a EU leader on this issue,I don’t think he will win any friends by saying this is a deliberate attempt to orchestrate the cultural make up of Europe,but you can tell he is not a very happy chappie,
Couldn’t find the BBC link so youtube will have to do



People seem to forget though ALL migrants allowed to stay in the EU will after 5 years be allowed to apply for citizenship.The plan of the EU is a long term plan, its mission creep bit by bit, eroding everything by piecemeal until you wake up one day and you will be in a United States of Europe.

 

[pastafarian]

IOur attacks like Lee Rigby and the underground attacks by were British Nationals on the whole.

Your point about Lee Rigby, both Killers of Nigerian descent. British Nationals in 'law' certainly (maybe) but not in thought. Don't be so naïve.

They were British. And descendents for the UK's Commonwealth...

You have totally missed [MENTION=27870]crookie[/MENTION] 's point. His point was that they are British nationals.

Yeah British nationals

They are not proper British people though are they,I clearly have to bow down to what some of you have said before.
How can they be proper British when according to anti monarchy regulations the Queen(No.1 Brit) is actually German, even after generations of non German birth lineage.
They clearly, by this thinking have no proper right to call themselves real British even with a bit of paper, and cant do so in their lifetime either, their kids will also have to wait for quite a few generations to come yet before they are even considered proper British.(there doesn’t, for some reason seem to be any conclusive timeline on this matter)

On this one im siding with the people who have made up these rules and who say the Queen is German .
These people are clearly not really British.

 

[Captain Sensible]

I think most of us have cottoned on to the point that more non EU immigrants come in, which is why some want the policy of CONTROLLED immigration. That means CONTROL of immigration whether EU or non EU.
If it is not worrying to see NON EU citizens moving through Europe in massive numbers and the acceptance by some EU countries to open their borders (with Frau Merkal the orchestrata) and try to dictate how many migrants this country takes, then i don't know what is.
Again this is a point in the Referendum that is just a part of what is wrong with being in the EU.

Which begs the question, if we leave the EU, will the Government Border control do anything at all? History proves a very poor track record on border policy and implementation of the policies. If we left the EU, where are the guarantees that the non EU flow will reduce? It never has. Why would the uk suddenly gets its act together on non EU immigration. The U.K. Controls who it lets in from outside the EU and has never been able to stop the flow, legal or illegal. This is part of my argument against leaving. I believe that risking the economic status quo and risking potential financial disaster by leaving is not worth it just for fear of Turkey getting a visa for schengen. There are millions of Turks already in the EU and half a million are here in the uk. We had this same fear with the Romainians. Yet still life goes on. We need to look closer to home for our terrorist threat and not imagine it's walking into the EU from Turkey. The EU doesn't force the UK to give Visas and permanent residency to non EU migrants. The U.K. Creates that mess by itself. After a Brexit, why the faith in the UK government all of a sudden? They'll have so much economical instability to deal with, sorting the borders and stopping non EU migration will be way down the list.
In my view the economic risks are not worth taking by leaving just for EU migrants to have to apply for a visa. Which Turkey would still have to do, even if it was allowed a visa for schengen.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

People seem to forget though ALL migrants allowed to stay in the EU will after 5 years be allowed to apply for citizenship.

You'll have to enlighten us as to which countries you are referring to here. I can speak for the UK and Germany and it's certainly not these two*. Although applying for citizenship and obtaining it are quite different.

* in the context of migrants with no other mitigating circumstances like parents are British etc