The ultimate REFERENDUM thread

[Deleted member 22389]

So the deal is set, swap non Syrians in Greece for Syrians in Turkey, good luck with removing the people that shouldn't be there. Will the same apply to other EU countries as well? This will result in even more problems and even more people. The EU, fini.

 

[BadFish]

Facts are, we know how much the EU is worth to the UK and vice versa, how much membership costs verses how much capital is generated through trade. This info is freely available from multiple sources. Surely you know this?
Now the facts on a Brexit please? Or even if there are no actual facts as its a hyperthetical at this point. Independant estimated costs (including estimated job losses, company losses, exchequer losses, and then projections on the gains that HAVE to follow otherwise what is the point of a Brexit)?
Oh...sorry you mean I have to search through the Internet for an independently sourced projections based on facts. Well I don't think I need to.
I know how much staying in is worth to the UK, I believe it's enough to warrant staying even with the EU's obvious issues. It's up to those that want out to present me with the alternative view that I find A) credible and B) worth leaving for.
As I said, I'm all ears. Or is it eyes?

It would be a breath of fresh air for either side to explain the benefits of their suggestion rather than highlighting the flaws of the other.

Politics is joke at both European or national levels. My guess is either way we get shafted.

 

[heathgate]

It would be a breath of fresh air for either side to explain the benefits of their suggestion rather than highlighting the flaws of the other.

Politics is joke at both European or national levels. My guess is either way we get shafted.

To make things easier, why not boil the whole thing down to this, as I have, .... do you believe in democracy? Do you want the decisions made on your behalf that affect your daily and future life, to be made by a parliament elected in this country?...... or do you want to have no real say and let the EU do it for you?.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

To make things easier, why not boil the whole thing down to this, as I have, .... do you believe in democracy? Do you want the decisions made on your behalf that affect your daily and future life, to be made by a parliament elected in this country?...... or do you want to have no real say and let the EU do it for you?.

My reasons for leaving are simple, the cost of membership, migration and the worries of over population, and the slow decline of European culture and religion. If that's not enough for people I don't know what is. Enough us enough

 

[BadFish]

To make things easier, why not boil the whole thing down to this, as I have, .... do you believe in democracy? Do you want the decisions made on your behalf that affect your daily and future life, to be made by a parliament elected in this country?...... or do you want to have no real say and let the EU do it for you?.

Certainly food for thought. Although I am not convinced that the alternative offers much alternative in terms of representation and that possibly having the eu to deal with offers some kind of protection for the electorate from the sitting government.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Whilst the phoney tough-talk is grating I have to say it's pleasing to see Cameron finally working with his European counterparts to find a solution to the refugee crisis; he is finally realising it's a crisis which won't just go away without real thought, understanding and cooperation being given to the solution. Is this the start of a new Europe where the UK plays its part? I hope so.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

the slow decline of European culture and religion.

What? France is still very French, Germany is still very German, Italy is still very Italian and Britain is still very British. Whilst I don't agree with a lot of your posts, I understand them. This I don't.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

To make things easier, why not boil the whole thing down to this, as I have, .... do you believe in democracy? Do you want the decisions made on your behalf that affect your daily and future life, to be made by a parliament elected in this country?...... or do you want to have no real say and let the EU do it for you?.

They are certainly not doing anything In the interests of Europeans here, I can't tell you that now.

 

[pastafarian]

Whilst the phoney tough-talk is grating I have to say it's pleasing to see Cameron finally working with his European counterparts to find a solution to the refugee crisis; he is finally realising it's a crisis which won't just go away without real thought, understanding and cooperation being given to the solution. Is this the start of a new Europe where the UK plays its part? I hope so.

The other leaders are finally listening to him i agree.
As he just said on the news he has always advocated taking processed refugees from the camps and not Merkels death policy of letting them drown followed by a long march.
(not his exact words i hasten to add)

 

[pastafarian]

My reasons for leaving are simple, the cost of membership, migration and the worries of over population, and the slow decline of European culture and religion. If that's not enough for people I don't know what is. Enough us enough

my trump cards are democracy, sovereignty , accountability
then immigration and the lack of security with open borders
The economic question is so far down my pecking order its almost off my radar,only because I know in my gut this country,people and leaders are perfectly capable of running a successful economy free from Brussels interference.
I don’t know why the in campaign is banging on about the economy and has made it their number one issue……..well actually I do know,that’s all they have left in the bank

 

[heathgate]

Certainly food for thought. Although I am not convinced that the alternative offers much alternative in terms of representation and that possibly having the eu to deal with offers some kind of protection for the electorate from the sitting government.

Why would you want Estonian or Greek bureaucrats deciding what's best for the UK?

 

[heathgate]

Whilst the phoney tough-talk is grating I have to say it's pleasing to see Cameron finally working with his European counterparts to find a solution to the refugee crisis; he is finally realising it's a crisis which won't just go away without real thought, understanding and cooperation being given to the solution. Is this the start of a new Europe where the UK plays its part? I hope so.

I agree... but not for one minute do I believe that the EU authorities will be strong enough to physically repatriate to Turkey, thousands of illegals sitting mostly in Greek territory. Sadly, Merkel has set expectations, and they know force won't be used, hey know that Western European authorities are handcuffed by civil liberty and human rights groups and sentiment.

They will keep coming.

Out for me.... the channel can be our borders going forward.

 

[nicko31]

The other leaders are finally listening to him i agree.
As he just said on the news he has always advocated taking processed refugees from the camps and not Merkels death policy of letting them drown followed by a long march.
(not his exact words i hasten to add)

Have to say Merkel is often right but the refugee has been a disaster for her and has done massive damage to Europe's standing. Cameron for once has got the balance right, you can't just open your borders to the whole world.

 

[Soulman]

Have to say Merkel is often right but the refugee has been a disaster for her and has done massive damage to Europe's standing. Cameron for once has got the balance right, you can't just open your borders to the whole world.

I think this was stated by many of us when others were heralding and praising Merkel ' open door policy.

 

[BadFish]

Why would you want Estonian or Greek bureaucrats deciding what's best for the UK?

The days of nations deciding what is best for themselves is long gone. I think i prefer the idea of Estonian and Greek Bureaucrats making decisions for the Uk than leaving it solely up to multinational corporations, international banking interests and global oil giants. The UK is always going to be answerable to someone why not make it a cooperative collection of nations from the same continent?

Having said that i would like nations to go back to providing food, goods and services for themselves. I think a simplified economic system would be beneficial both economically and environmentally. However this is cloud cuckoo land and we are too far into the neo liberal extremist capitalism to go back now........ well not till after the meltdown anyway.

 

[5ways]

my trump cards are democracy, sovereignty , accountability
then immigration and the lack of security with open borders
The economic question is so far down my pecking order its almost off my radar,only because I know in my gut this country,people and leaders are perfectly capable of running a successful economy free from Brussels interference.
I don’t know why the in campaign is banging on about the economy and has made it their number one issue……..well actually I do know,that’s all they have left in the bank

You want the 'emotional case for Europe' then

 

[5ways]

When you say "Europeans" I assume you mean the member state's electorate? If so at what point have they EVER Benn consulted about EU expansion? You are too young to remember but when Poland joined and Blair and his cabinet came under pressure for not restricting freedom of movement for Poles, they said only 15,000 Poles would come to the UK. They meant as well the f@cking dolts.

http://news.sky.com/story/1044874/blair-award-for-helping-poles-move-to-uk

What this indicates is that it is not what the electorate think that counts, if EU politicians and unelected technocrats want it, it will happen......Merkel wants it.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...sed-merkel-juncker-eu-statement-a6916966.html

Even our own PM wants it......

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...-Turkey-to-join-EU-despite-migrant-fears.html

And even the opposition (as it was) want it.......

http://ceftus.org/2012/07/04/message-from-ed-miliband/

The trouble with you young uns' is that you have no experience of the long perpetual deceit of our own politicians in doing what big business want, the view of the electorate's don't matter.

You'll think differently in 20 years.........it's not your fault.

Feel free to get back to me then

 

[jgmcdee]

To make things easier, why not boil the whole thing down to this, as I have, .... do you believe in democracy?

Yes.

Do you want the decisions made on your behalf that affect your daily and future life, to be made by a parliament elected in this country?...... or do you want to have no real say and let the EU do it for you?.

This, however is rubbish. Any government is action at a distance, but you need to look at how you personally impact said government. I prefer the EU system to the UK system of election, because it seems to give a more representative result. For example the 2014 MEP elections in the UK[1] gave the following results for the top three parties by % of vote:

╔══════════════╦═══════════╦════════════╗
║    Party     ║ % of vote ║ % of seats ║
╠══════════════╬═══════════╬════════════╣
║ UKIP         ║ 26.60     ║ 32.88      ║
║ Labour       ║ 24.43     ║ 27.40      ║
║ Conservative ║ 23.05     ║ 26.03      ║
╚══════════════╩═══════════╩════════════╝

And in the 2015 MP elections[2] the UK gave the following results for the same parties:

╔══════════════╦═══════════╦════════════╗
║    Party     ║ % of vote ║ % of seats ║
╠══════════════╬═══════════╬════════════╣
║ Conservative ║ 36.8      ║ 50.8       ║
║ Labour       ║ 30.5      ║ 35.7       ║
║ UKIP         ║ 12.7      ║ 0.3        ║
╚══════════════╩═══════════╩════════════╝

All of the UK's laws have to pass through the House of Lords. I can't find any numbers on the alterations made by the Lords but the Lords have inflicted approximately 15 defeats per year on the government in modern times[3]. This is an unelected body overruling a democratically elected body, and happens regularly.

The most common complaint about democracy in the EU is that the European Commission is undemocratic. The EU commissioners are proposed by their governments, and so have the same level of democratic accountability as the government that proposed them. The EU commission can be removed by the EU parliament en masse if the parliament so decides[4].

I struggle with the argument that the EU is not democratic because I can find no proof of it. The systems of democracy in the EU are somewhat different to that in the UK but they aren't undemocratic. The only "proof" that I've seen around the EU being undemocratic boils down to instances of the democratic process going against the UK, which is a shame because it shows that the process is working. Apart from that it's thinly veiled xenophobia ("they" make the laws and "we" have no say in them etc.). Feel free to explain why the EU is undemocratic because I really want to hear it; it does feel like I'm missing something.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament_election,_2014_(United_Kingdom)
[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_2015
[3]https://www.ucl.ac.uk/constitution-unit/research/parliament/house-of-lords/lords-defeats
[4]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission#Dismissal

 

[Buzzer]

For me it's an economic question. The facts and stats back up that remaining is in the economic benefit of the U.K. I have never heard a credible argument to the contrary. I'm all ears though.

This in spades. ....it is all bollocks, Bananas, the Chinese, Asylum seekers. Gimme the balance sheet please!

I never quite get how left-leaning folk (and I think I'm right in thinking both of you are) are quite happy when it comes to Europe to be led by what big business wants, first and foremost. Sod accountability and sod the electorate, lets be led by the peculiarly selfish needs of the very corporations that we moan about and distrust when it comes to domestic politics. Very strange indeed.

Anyhow, you asked for something that proves Britain would be better off out of Europe, I posted this earlier but I'll repost here. It's an article by a very eminent and neutral economist who argues that Brexit would probably NOT leave Britain any worse off than if it stayed despite the fearmongering by the IN campaign. And so, taking the economy out of the equation, I think greater autonomy and accountability can be achieved with a Brexit.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...s-johnson-is-right-about-europe-a6909811.html

 

[sten_super]

My reasons for leaving are simple, the cost of membership, migration and the worries of over population, and the slow decline of European culture and religion. If that's not enough for people I don't know what is. Enough us enough

my trump cards are democracy, sovereignty , accountability

then immigration and the lack of security with open borders

The economic question is so far down my pecking order its almost off my radar,only because I know in my gut this country,people and leaders are perfectly capable of running a successful economy free from Brussels interference.

I don’t know why the in campaign is banging on about the economy and has made it their number one issue……..well actually I do know,that’s all they have left in the bank

Thanks for these, as someone firmly in the 'In' camp it's great to hear genuine reasons from supporters in the opposite camp.

The issue of democracy, sovereignty and accountability are undoubtedly complex. I know a lot of people have major problems with technocrats (which is broadly what the Commission is) making decisions that impact us all - but I must say that I don't, particularly. I have very little faith in politicians and am sick to the back teeth of them believing that their view is somehow superior to people that have spent their lives working in/studying particular areas. People have different views on where the worst of the democratic deficit in the EU is, but I actually quite like the idea that the technocrats devise policy, and the politicians (the MEPs) then vote on it. Seems like a reasonable balance to me.

I think sovereignty is a major point where we'd differ. I've said this before on other topics, but I'm not particularly nationalistic (and I don't mean that in the negative sense of the word). I have as much (in fact in my experience more) in common with other middle-class Europeans than I do with a lot of the British population. Language is not the barrier that it once was (thanks to the creeping anglicisation/americanisation of society), and actually my world view is (seemingly) more likely to be shared by others from a similar background across Europe as it is by all segments of the British people. So while others might view our independence and sovereignty as something to be protected at all costs, I don't.

I guess it comes down to this fundamental idea that Brussels is 'interfering' in our way of life. I don't think it does any more than the UK government does.

So then we come down to the issue of immigration; I understand (superficially, at least) people's concerns about large-scale immigration. However it's a very difficult issue to unpick, because freedom of movement is intrinsically tied into the common market. As far as the EU are concerned (at the moment at least) it's impossible to have one (membership of the single market) without the other (free movement of goods and people). So then it's a trade-off; control of our own borders and some economic pain (at least in the short term, while firms and markets adjust to the new export markets) or continued access to those markets (and the economic benefits that they bring) and the an inability to control migration from EU Member States.