The ultimate REFERENDUM thread

[maltaseagull]

If Ukraine were a member of NATO Russia would not be interfering in it's internal affairs. But it isn't so rather unfair to criticize it (NATO) for not acting.

So, NATO's brief is only about member states. So, Russia can do what it likes as long as no members of NATO are affected?

That suggests NATO is not really worth anything.

 

[Seagull on the wing]

WTF are we going to trade with if we leave, we destroyed our manufacturing industries we have few resources and our banking industry is shite, what are we going to sell magic beans? We import so much, we have an ageing population

Sorry to disillusion you...our banking industry is the best in Europe...and our biggest earner....yes we do import so much I agree with you there,that is why remaining in Europe is so wrong...we sell more to the rest of the world than Europe. Nissan have stated in or out,their manufacturing plants would stay in the UK,the same goes for HSB.
Another poster has stated that our hospitals have so many nurses and doctors from immigration...maybe that is true,but there again we have more migrants going to hospital for free health care. I'm lucky,I have had wonderful treatment from the NHS..BUT I have paid into the system all my life. I was recently in Hungry and had to pay £80 for a prescription...when will this country step on these health tourist using up our resources which you and I pay for?
And I will ask again as no 'In' member can seem to answer...what benefit do we get out of the EU...seeing as we are the second biggest contributor,not a member of the Euro...of those clever souls who said if we do not join the Euro we are doomed...er what currency is struggling now,who has higher unemployment than us.
When I hear of a reason to stay in then I would puruse their idea...but please come up with a reasonable argument.

 

[Hampster Gull]

Our service sector, which include the big accountancy and consultancy firms, is fantastic and David was right to push on opening up that market. Could be boom time

 

[Chicken Runner61]

Those thinking that have no understanding of history, specifically European history and should look up the term appeasement. NATO is the bedrock of Western security.

Some people say Nato is a waste of money as its just used by USA to get bases in Europe and to get European support for its wars. Didn't Nato only ever use Article 5 for Afghanistan. Originally Nato theatre of operations was never to extend below the tropic of cancer.

Even the bombing of Serbia struggled to get UN approval

Its hardly the bedrock of Western security because it only seems to get used when it suits USA

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Some people say Nato is a waste of money as its just used by USA to get bases in Europe and to get European support for its wars. Didn't Nato only ever use Article 5 for Afghanistan. Originally Nato theatre of operations was never to extend below the tropic of cancer.

Even the bombing of Serbia struggled to get UN approval

Its hardly the bedrock of Western security because it only seems to get used when it suits USA

If the 3rd shock army comes rolling over Eastern Europe who do you want at your side the EU quick reaction force or NATO?

 

[Chicken Runner61]

Would NATO be more likely to come to the aid of a member or the states of Europe supported by its other States or an individual small country despite it being in NATO? Because history has shown NATO seems to take ages to get approval and do anything. So your question does more to suggest that we would be better in Europe with the quick reaction force

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Would NATO be more likely to come to the aid of a member or the states of Europe supported by its other States or an individual small country despite it being in NATO? Because history has shown NATO seems to take ages to get approval and do anything. So your question does more to suggest that we would be better in Europe with the quick reaction force

We must agree to differ ..

The White House wants to quadruple military spending in Europe after Russian aggression in Ukraine has rekindled Cold War tensions.
Ash Carter, the American Defence Secretary, said the US was now more worried about Russian actions than at anytime since the collapse of the Soviet Union.
"We haven't had to worry about this for 25 years, and while I wish it were otherwise, now we do."
Ash Carter
Spending on military deployments designed to reassure Eastern European countries who fear Russian meddling or attack will jump from £547m ($789m) to £2.4bn ($3.4bn) according to a 2017 budget proposal.
Unveiling the spending plans, he said: “We must demonstrate to potential foes that if they start a war, we have the capability to win.”
"We're taking a strong and balanced approach to deter Russian aggression," he said in a speech to the Economic Club of Washington. "We haven't had to worry about this for 25 years, and while I wish it were otherwise, now we do."

Nato countries such as the Baltic states and Poland fear they will be targeted next by the Kremlin.
American has stepped up exercises in the countries and said it will redeploy tanks, howitzers, armoured vehicles and supplies in depots across the region in case of a crisis.
Barack Obama warned Russia had taken an "aggressive posture" near Nato countries, and said it was a "challenging and important time" for the alliance.
He said: “It is clear that the United States and our allies must do more to advance our common defence in support of a Europe that is whole, free, and at peace.”

Jens Stoltenberg, Nato Secretary General, welcomed the extra US spending.
He said: “This is a clear sign of the enduring commitment by the United States to European security. It will be a timely and significant contribution to NATO’S deterrence, and collective defence."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...as-US-increases-Europe-military-spending.html

Without the US we are stuffed. Most European nations spend pitiful amounts on defence while relying on the US to come to their aid if attacked. There should be a minimum mandatory 2% of GDP spent on defence which we in the UK have signed up to.

 

[Chicken Runner61]

But this debate is about the Eu not nato my point to you is that nato is more like to help in the event of attack an EU member than a lone state you were arguing that we didn't need the Eu as we were in NATO. Even your report suggests the USA are going to support Europe by "defending a Europe that is WHOLE, free and at peace"

 

[JC Footy Genius]

But this debate is about the Eu not nato my point to you is that nato is more like to help in the event of attack an EU member than a lone state you were arguing that we didn't need the Eu as we were in NATO. Even your report suggests the USA are going to support Europe by "defending a Europe that is WHOLE, free and at peace"

I was answering your fear of Russian aggression point.

I'm more worried about countries like Russia who are sabre rattling at Europe to scare off interference in conflict areas like Ukraine and Syria - we might have a fantastic army but it terms of weapons and size we are tiny

You seemed to be suggesting staying in the EU would some how deter Russian aggression I was simply pointing out this was a mistaken opinion. NATO is the organisation that deters aggressive military action against Europe and the wider west. If the EU disappeared tomorrow we would be still have a strong mutual defence agreement including the world's No 1 Military power. If NATO disappeared we would be up sh*t creek without a paddle.

 

[Chicken Runner61]

WTF are we going to trade with if we leave, we destroyed our manufacturing industries we have few resources and our banking industry is shite, what are we going to sell magic beans? We import so much, we have an ageing population

Sorry to disillusion you...our banking industry is the best in Europe...and our biggest earner....yes we do import so much I agree with you there,that is why remaining in Europe is so wrong...we sell more to the rest of the world than Europe. Nissan have stated in or out,their manufacturing plants would stay in the UK,the same goes for HSB.
Another poster has stated that our hospitals have so many nurses and doctors from immigration...maybe that is true,but there again we have more migrants going to hospital for free health care. I'm lucky,I have had wonderful treatment from the NHS..BUT I have paid into the system all my life. I was recently in Hungry and had to pay £80 for a prescription...when will this country step on these health tourist using up our resources which you and I pay for?
And I will ask again as no 'In' member can seem to answer...what benefit do we get out of the EU...seeing as we are the second biggest contributor,not a member of the Euro...of those clever souls who said if we do not join the Euro we are doomed...er what currency is struggling now,who has higher unemployment than us.
When I hear of a reason to stay in then I would puruse their idea...but please come up with a reasonable argument.

Hsbc have said if we pulled out of Europe they might move and would move 1000 staff to Paris

Not sure how financial services would fare some say disaster some say we would manage but it might need help from Europe to manage.

We import more than we export, we have no resources and our manufacturing industries rely on exporting much THROUGH European trade. We export virtually the same to Germany as we do to our biggest market the US

Ive heard say that for every £1 we put into Europe we get £10 worth of trade. benefits and resources back - it's difficult to estimate the benefits but remember at the moment we can export to Europe free of duties - our financial services can operate in Europe freely and countries outside Europe set up here so they can export direct to Europe.

It's a lot easier to nail down what's wrong with Europe immigration, regulations, benefit migrants single currency restrictions etc etc

But all the bits that work like cheap food freedom of travel, and ease for business go under the radar.

And we have no resources or industry that's easily exported - it's an unknown territory on how we will survive if it happens.

 

[Chicken Runner61]

I was answering your fear of Russian aggression point.



You seemed to be suggesting staying in the EU would some how deter Russian aggression I was simply pointing out this was a mistaken opinion. NATO is the organisation that deters aggressive military action against Europe and the wider west. If the EU disappeared tomorrow we would be still have a strong mutual defence agreement including the world's No 1 Military power. If NATO disappeared we would be up sh*t creek without a paddle.

I think we do disagree here - I'm pro NATO but it needs a kick up the arse - it's been useless in Ukraine it's doing nothing to stop Putin and even last week we had to intercept two Russian planes.
It's unlikely to get involved in small disputes even if they are members and the worlds no 1 military power only gives a shit if it's interests or people are attacked or under threat. The us uses NATO to get free use of bases and ports in Europe it's more to protect the USA than us. The UN is far more important than NATO - Putin is doing what he likes in Ukraine and Syria and China and N Korea won't be worried about NATO

 

[crookie]

It is frankly a disgrace that in this day and age Europe has to rely on the USA to defend it as we aren't willing to commit the resources to defend ourselves against Russian aggression. The EU share of GDP, most of whom are in NATO is 23%, USA us 22%, Russia is 3%. How the hell is our capability so pitiful in comparison?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

It is frankly a disgrace that in this day and age Europe has to rely on the USA to defend it as we aren't willing to commit the resources to defend ourselves against Russian aggression. The EU share of GDP, most of whom are in NATO is 23%, USA us 22%, Russia is 3%. How the hell is our capability so pitiful in comparison?

Your first sentence is correct. Your second is baffling where do you get your numbers from?

The EU countries combined spend 1.22% (2012) of their combined GDP on defence. USA 3.5%, Russia 4.5%.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.GD.ZS

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_European_Union

 

[Notters]

*** Puts his middle of the road cap on ***

Strictly speaking, mathematically yes, we pay more in than we take out. Some will say we benefit from other things such as the NHS being staffed by immigrants. Some will say that takes away British jobs ( or at least pushes down wages ).

Some say we benefit from the free movement of people - you can go to Europe without a visa. Others say this causes issues with immigration.

Some say peace in Europe has only been achieved because of the EU - others credit NATO for this.

As you can see, all this will boil down to is opinions - there really are no facts regardless of what each side says. So vote with your gut instinct. For the record, I'd vote no.

Bloody hell good post dude. (Still a massive IN here)

 

[crookie]

Your first sentence is correct. Your second is baffling where do you get your numbers from?

The EU countries combined spend 1.22% (2012) of their combined GDP on defence. USA 3.5%, Russia 4.5%.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.GD.ZS

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_European_Union

My second sentence was on the share of world GDP which showed how shockingly European funding of defence is in relation to their economic output. Apologies, didn't explain it properly

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

For the record, I'd vote no.

dinner of your choice to vote in?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

*** Puts his middle of the road cap on ***

Strictly speaking, mathematically yes, we pay more in than we take out. Some will say we benefit from other things such as the NHS being staffed by immigrants. Some will say that takes away British jobs ( or at least pushes down wages ).

Some say we benefit from the free movement of people - you can go to Europe without a visa. Others say this causes issues with immigration.

Some say peace in Europe has only been achieved because of the EU - others credit NATO for this.

As you can see, all this will boil down to is opinions - there really are no facts regardless of what each side says. So vote with your gut instinct. For the record, I'd vote no.

A good-ish post. I don't agree with voting on gut instinct. The EU will never be everything to everyone; weigh things up and vote on balance.

 

[sir albion]

I see Sky are more interesting in discovering which cabinet members are voting out than actually discussing the merits advantages/disadvantages of both positions. There is nothing like keeping the public informed on rather a crucial issue but I guess that is not their job.

Yes noticed that and to be frank the politicians votes are irrelevant compared to the general public

 

[Westdene Seagull]

dinner of your choice to vote in?

Ha ha - I can't think of a dinner I've ever had that would make me 'sell' my vote. Now if you can get Kelly Brook to come along and it involves a hotel bedroom after dinner then I may reconsider.

 

[Perfidious Albion]

Despite the economic debates and figures, people will go with their gut instinct and what they see serves them best. I'd expect Scotland to vote IN since a lot of them want to split & remain in it. Ex pats and those with property in Europe will vote IN . Workers whose bosses say their jobs are more secure will vote IN , younger people brought up to it are more likely to vote IN.

Oldies like me who remember that we did OK before joining are more likely to vote OUT, Anglophiles & those in fear of immigration will vote OUT.

As for me? Since the great and good (experts) are divided on the risk/benefits , who knows?.... I have never liked the European Union for a lot of instances over the years, so I am OUT