The ultimate REFERENDUM thread

[melias shoes]

One of the most disappointing aspects of NSC for me when it comes to debates on Europe, is the way that a minority of those who want us to remain in resort to calling those who want out names such as 'racist', 'xenophobes' etc. Also posting pictures of 'out' campaigners, suggesting for some reason these are stupid people. I wish the debate could be had without this.

It's 'OUT' for me, and I'm certainly not any of the above.

It's going to get nastier. I can feel it.

 

[sir albion]

1) I have no problem with Spaniards, Frenchmen and women, Germans etc. etc. coming here. Do you?
2) Yes, and?
3) All UK law? https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-what-proportion-influenced-eu/
4) Assumption
5) Yes, and there will be global economic crises as well, none of which we are immune to by leaving the EU
6) Yes, and this will not be an EU only problem[/QUOTE
Most people don't have problems with immigration although the numbers coming in are going up and up and it's creating a lot of problems within our country.
The infrastructure of the country is being stretched and not enough money is actually being invested in our country...seems other countries benefit far more than us as its cuts cuts cuts here.

 

[sir albion]

Correct and who put his head above the parapet today? Yep the self serving Nick Clegg. That bloke only cares about getting himself on the gravy train.

Just a follow me leader is clegg the wet blanket.
It's clear that small businesses are far more likely to be better off out than the corporate buffoons who will be in.

Time the British people grew some balls for once as I have no doubts what's so ever we'll be better off out and will prosper

 

[cunning fergus]

As I said. You're resorting to false conclusions and personalisation, which is often a sign that you feel you've lost a grip of the argument.

For every google link you provide an opposing view can be found.

You underestimate the damage of leaving the EU.

Staying in is damage, you think TTIP won't privatise the NHS and yet Corbyn has spoke out about it many many times before his jump to leadership and unions like Unite plus others connected to the NHS are currently campaigning to highlight the effect TTIP will have on the NHS.

You think it won't because you think the Commission and the Tories can be trusted.

It's not an argument I am just establishing the positions we have taken.

 

[Hamilton]

Staying in is damage, you think TTIP won't privatise the NHS and yet Corbyn has spoke out about it many many times before his jump to leadership and unions like Unite plus others connected to the NHS are currently campaigning to highlight the effect TTIP will have on the NHS.

You think it won't because you think the Commission and the Tories can be trusted.

It's not an argument I am just establishing the positions we have taken.

I'm aware of the positions we've taken, and I can also assure you that you don't have to be a 'tory' to be prepared to stay in the EU and see where TTIP takes us.

It's a fact of life that large corporates will continue to exist and will continue to employ large numbers of people. One can argue that run well corporates can provide a lot of economic stability. Low pay, can also be addressed in many ways and needs to be. The gap between haves and have nots has never been greater. However, isolation from Europe will not necessarily deliver great gains in prosperity that many expect. It can make things harder.

 

[The Spanish]

the most depressing thing about all this is its turning into the scottish independence referendum writ large, which i had the misfortune to witness at first hand in Glasgow, based purely on emotion and/or fear with a complete lack of facts.

I cannot stand all this, but what gets me most is the double standards. the scottish yes vote wasnt torn to bits as being parochial like the out vote in this one, when it was equally so - oh we will be much better without westminster/brussels delete as appropriate dictating terms, funny how one was somehow reasonable and plucky (while based on pure ethnic nationalism, i was quizzed many times by the ill-informed as to why i had a vote, despite being resident in Scotland at the time, simply because i was ethnically English) and this one is somehow small time little Englander.

NO won in scotland as no one from YES (or AYE, as they cringingly put it) put forward any solid evidence of benefit apart from nationalist sentiment. OUT will lose in this one for the same reason. a real missed opportunity.

 

[Hampster Gull]

I don't understand your point here, you accept there needs to be full fiscal integration for the currency to be secure, but you don't think this will take place?

Instead you think there will be a partial fiscal integration and that will be fine because so long as the politicians find a solution to the next crisis then all will be well for ever........I think that's it isn't it?

Is this an argument you are making to support the EU or to highlight its systemic weakness? I am not sure.

You misquote me so i am not surprised you are not sure

 

[cunning fergus]

I'm aware of the positions we've taken, and I can also assure you that you don't have to be a 'tory' to be prepared to stay in the EU and see where TTIP takes us.

It's a fact of life that large corporates will continue to exist and will continue to employ large numbers of people. One can argue that run well corporates can provide a lot of economic stability. Low pay, can also be addressed in many ways and needs to be. The gap between haves and have nots has never been greater. However, isolation from Europe will not necessarily deliver great gains in prosperity that many expect. It can make things harder.

Well maybe I have you wrong and you can sell privatisation as a socialist construct, please feel free to explain how TTIP will benefit the working class and those working in public services?

I know large corporations will continue to exist and they are not all manifestly evil, however as highlighted in another thread how do you control their dominance? I think electoral accountability is the key, which is not what we have with the European Commission. On that basis I remain a cynic.

Further when the most powerful man in the Commission was a architect of tax avoidance by these very same corporations I think we know why he is in his job. It is a credit to Cameron that he opposed his appointment, the only one out of 28 EU leaders with a vote.

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/world_news/Europe/article1606181.ece

I know, you still trust the EU, anyone who doesn't is a zealot.

 

[cunning fergus]

You misquote me so i am not surprised you are not sure

What bit is misquoting your sentiment?

 

[sir albion]

Looks like the shareholders of these big corporate machines are getting twitchy and rightly so as they have no interest in anything but increasing their Wad.
I wish Cameron would stop bleating on and let the real workers decide for themselves.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

One of the most disappointing aspects of NSC for me when it comes to debates on Europe, is the way that a minority of those who want us to remain in resort to calling those who want out names such as 'racist', 'xenophobes' etc. Also posting pictures of 'out' campaigners, suggesting for some reason these are stupid people. I wish the debate could be had without this.

It's 'OUT' for me, and I'm certainly not any of the above.

I've seen this view before but I genuinely don't understand it. I can't remember the last time I saw anyone called a racist and nearly all the name-calling seems to come from Outers. I've been called a liar with a taste for 'dirty filthy scams' for example. Tell you what - give us half a dozen examples of personal abuse on this thread and I'll match it.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

That is the problem with you 'Leave' zealots - you're prone to jump to very wrong conclusions.

The EU is not perfect. That does not mean we should leave.

Quite.

 

[sir albion]

Quite.

Quiet wrong
It will get far far worse....That you can be sure of.

 

[heathgate]

Quite.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/nissan-urges-britain-to-join-the-euro-1115176.html


This article illustrates the type of unfounded doom-mongering that the Europhiles push out there.... we didnt join the Euro in back then, 1999 it was written, and we are bloody lucky we didnt.

 

[pb21]

Quiet wrong
It will get far far worse....That you can be sure of.

So much fear mongering from the leave goons, can't they think of any positive reasons to leave?!

How would my life be tangibly better if we left?

 

[heathgate]

Well first and foremost, the current estimated 28% of active UK legislation that originated from, and is dictated to us by the EU, and cannot be changed without the agreement of the EU..... will return to the control of the UK parliament..... so in other words, democracy.

 

[pb21]

Well first and foremost, the current estimated 28% of active UK legislation that originated from, and is dictated to us by the EU, and cannot be changed without the agreement of the EU..... will return to the control of the UK parliament..... so in other words, democracy.

Well, if we vote to stay part of the EU we will have democratically elected for this, whatever the result we will have democracy.

In addition if we do stay, we wouldn't have to necessarily have to stay in the EU forever, things always change.

 

[heathgate]

Why vote for government by an unelected cabal in Brussels?... illogical and just plain barmy.

 

[pb21]

Why vote for government by an unelected cabal in Brussels?... illogical and just plain barmy.

Because you might think it's a good idea?

Any other ways my life will be tangibly better by leaving?

 

[heathgate]

And probably the reason that, so far, they have kept out of the Baltic states.

....and Turkey, and the rest of Western Europe....NATO has indeed done what it was set up to do, protect its members from the menace to the east.