The Right Honourable The Baroness Thatcher LG OM PC FRS lives... Hurrah!

[El Presidente]

No, my opinion just differs to yours,get over it

No, you have proved yourself repeatedly over the last six months to be NSC's resident village idiot, despite a lot of competition.

 

[Seagull58]

He was willing to die for a principle,she was willing to send innocents to die to win an election. Sands wins every day.

FFS. You are not seriously saying she sent innocents to die to win an election are you? Please explain because i really have no idea what you are on about.

 

[Titanic]

Jesus!!! can you imagine this site when the old battle axe finally does kick the bucket!!!!

I am pretty sure that when our glorious leader does depart this earth, Bozza will close the site for the three days of national mourning and then again for the state funeral.

 

[El Presidente]

I am pretty sure Bozza will close the site for the three days of national mourning.

I thought he was planning that if the launch of the iPhone 5 was delayed.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I am pretty sure that when our glorious leader does depart this earth, Bozza will close the site for the three days of national mourning and then again for the state funeral.

Good idea as all the sensible intellectual posters who add value to this site will be too busy partying.

 

[Titanic]

Good idea as all the sensible intellectual posters who add value to this site will be too busy partying.

I'm sure all three of you will have a lovely time.

 

[Seagull58]

You have obviously never met me, as I cannot be described as little in any way shape or form. Sad yes, sad because of all the people she screwed over in her power hungry life. I am married to an ex miners daughter, and I know what a lot of them went through. Whole villages in the North and Wales were put out of work, because her and Tebbit were on their power trip. This country was held to ransom and sold off. So excuse me if I don't shed a tear for the soppy cow, won' you.

Arthur Scargill held the country to ransom and got dealt with.

 

[simmo]

It is not a well structured argument though is it. It is just a usual left wing blame EVERYTHING on Thatcher reply which is just lazy thinking. QUOTE]

you clearly didnt read it - he criticises callaghan, major, blair etc too.

Pre falklands (so 2 years max to an election) her popularity was the LOWEST EVER by a prime minister at that point. Lower than heath, lower than wilson and lower than Callaghan. To face that deficit and the apparent support for a left wing party which as you say was in the grip of extreme militant socialism is something we do need to recognise. What the falkland conflict did was to allow a domestically vulnerable PM to appear resolute on the world stage which was a significant factor in her renewed support. I'm not saying it was engineered (although the miners' strike clearly was) but it had an effect.

So what if 2 years before an election was due (she could have called it in May 84) her popularity was at an all time low. I expect all political leaders mid term to have awful ratings, it is the very nature of politics and it's cycles and is not unique to Thatcher. e.g Cameron and Clegg now

On election day (which is the only day when popularity matters) itself she thrashed Foot (maybe the highest ever majority for the Cons ever? certainly post war) 4 years later she thrashed Kinnock. She must have been popular with some people. Delude yourself if you think history is different.

 

[simmo]

Hi Simmo actually I am not left wing I leave that to Will Buckley! Seriously, I am however a trained historian. I make my living by analysing the crap out of issues. On a board such as this it is not really possible to reach the depth I would like its more a case of a precise, a summary to make a point. You ask why blame Thatcher? Well this particular topic was referring to her demise, so that is why? If you would like me to consider other areas of influence then please put up a topic and I will give it a go. I will take issue with one of your points. The 1983 election. The polls for Mrs T prior to the Falklands war had her heading for political oblivion. This despite the left and centre left having divided in two. The rump of the Labour party and the new Social Democrats. This had the effect of splitting the traditional Labour vote. It should have been a walk over. It was indeed a victory for Mrs T but she needed the divided opposition and Falklands victory to swing it. The consequences of those times divided a nation. You only have to mention the word Thatcher and look at the response from both sides of the fence. I think that says it all about Mrs T.

You say you are historian, well you are not a very sensible one if you compare her to Hitler, which is my implication of re-reading post 66, how utterly absurd. You say your are not left wing, well everything I read of that update suggests to me that you are.

You want a discussion eh, ok well I have just pulled this little gem out of your earlier mail, basically just blaming Thatcher for everything.

"How about freeing up the financial regulations in 1987. Big Bang they called it.. well that is what got us in the mess we are in now .."

Please explain how, Thatcher whom left office 22 years ago is more culpable for the financial mess we are in now than say....Gordon Brown whom was chancellor of exchequer from 1997-2008 and PM from 2008-10.

Maybe you can explain why Brown whom had 10+ years to do something (i.e overturn/repeal) about the financial regulations Thatcher brought in, in 1987, he did nothing. Surely if these were so bad and the cause of the predicament the country now faces he would rectify this situation during those 10+ years...but he didn't and even made the financial regulations more freer (A).......and (B) overspent while PM leaving us with the defecit we as a nation now see.

 

[Moshe Gariani]

I am pretty sure that when our glorious leader does depart this earth, Bozza will close the site for the three days of national mourning and then again for the state funeral.

Agreed. Three Bank Holidays for starters, followed by an extra one on the day of the funeral, should be sufficient for everyone to celebrate this event properly.... A street party somewhere in Brighton is a given surely? :redflag:

 

[Simster]

This thread sums up Thatcher's real legacy - village idiots and intelligent NSC people, horribly, angrily divided.


It is for this reason, rather than my own political viewpoint that I can never accept anyone talking about her in terms of being one of the greatest leaders we ever had. No truly great leader could ever be so divisive.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I stated people like me not me personally. By which i mean trade unionists and socialists who opposed her. She saw us as treasonous. I believe the penalty at the time for treason was the death penalty.

It wasn't actually - only high treason carried the death penalty ( and still does ) and you'd need to kill the Queen to achieve that. So you're stating Thacher wanted "your type" dead when she didn't say anything of the kind ?

 

[Common as Mook]

This thread sums up Thatcher's real legacy - village idiots and intelligent NSC people, horribly, angrily divided.


It is for this reason, rather than my own political viewpoint that I can never accept anyone talking about her in terms of being one of the greatest leaders we ever had. No truly great leader could ever be so divisive.

Stupid people think she was a great leader.
Stupid people compare her to Hitler and proclaim they will piss on her grave and party when she dies.

For that reason I agree with you, despite that fact I admire her without thinking she was great

 

[ALBION28]

You say you are historian, well you are not a very sensible one if you compare her to Hitler, which is my implication of re-reading post 66, how utterly absurd. You say your are not left wing, well everything I read of that update suggests to me that you are.

You want a discussion eh, ok well I have just pulled this little gem out of your earlier mail, basically just blaming Thatcher for everything.

"How about freeing up the financial regulations in 1987. Big Bang they called it.. well that is what got us in the mess we are in now .."

Please explain how, Thatcher whom left office 22 years ago is more culpable for the financial mess we are in now than say....Gordon Brown whom was chancellor of exchequer from 1997-2008 and PM from 2008-10.

Maybe you can explain why Brown whom had 10+ years to do something (i.e overturn/repeal) about the financial regulations Thatcher brought in, in 1987, he did nothing. Surely if these were so bad and the cause of the predicament the country now faces he would rectify this situation during those 10+ years...but he didn't and even made the financial regulations more freer (A).......and (B) overspent while PM leaving us with the defecit we as a nation now see.

Ah! A challenge, excellent. You start with a personal comment that I am not a 'sensible' historian. It is the role of historians to challenge, to shine a light, to sift through all the debris and find the truth no matter the distractions. I have made a very good living doing so and my analysis has to be correct or it can be personally costly ...that means out of the window goes dogma. Surely that's only for football fans.
You have chosen to examine the 1987 'Big Bang' . Historians always search for causes and consequences. What is happening now will have a root, the skill is to trace it. The current financial crisis rests in 1987. You know its like ripples in a pond. The stone was thrown in, 1987 and the ripples turned into an economic Tsunami, but it took time, it is rarely instant (e.g Entente Cordiale 1904 took until 1914 to reach its conclusion). The financial restrictions on banks had been put in place during the course of the 1930's by a National Government dealing with a crisis not too dissimilar to now. Restrictions on currency and lending were strictly maintained but Mrs T was set on shifting our economy to one of service rather than manufacturing. In part this emerged from her desire to destroy union power. She never forgot or forgave the teachers for 'Thatcher, Thatcher the milk snatcher'. What do they say about a woman scorned?
So Big Bang and removal of restrictions. This enabled greater investment and at first it seemed a success. Loans would become easy, the time of irresponsibility had begun. You are correct to say this continued once Blair came to power. He admired Thatcher and he and his Chancellor could not see the problem. They got cosy with the Tory media (Particularly the King maker Murdoch) and got into bed with the city. As Brown reflected in 2011, his biggest error in office was not to see that he needed to reverse the 1987 legislation. You are again correct to say he indeed added to it....big error and his arrogance stretch to saying boom and bust was a thing of the past. Looking at the debt situation it appears that this was in balance until 2008. The moment the chickens came home to roost. In the states so many unsustainable loans had been made, they could not be paid back. Our banks had lent to their banks without restriction and it unravelled. Dilemma for whoever was in power. In fact the opposition were consulted and it was decided to save the banks. The cost of this almost matches the increased debt mountain. The prudence Brown had shown up to 2008 was blow away. A future debate will exist on this point should they have let the banks collapse or as they decided bail them out. The error was Thatchers but she was aided by those who failed to act, step forward Major, Blair and Brown. If good men fail to act then they are as culpable.
The current deficit would in reality have been the same whatever party were in office as they all accepted the Thatcher way. So we come full circle. Much will lay at the door of Thatcher. It matters not that she was a Tory because whatever colour she wore she would have created havoc...she did.
Finally Mrs T Matches with Mr H
Mrs T
Dictator 'A majority of one', as she would often say. She ruled her cabinet absolutely, opposition were removed (sacked) and politically destroyed.
Mr H
Total control of his cabinet, removal of opposition destroyed politically or actually.

Controls media Mrs T Kept tight allies in the Tory Media.Brainwashing techniques (some people still think she was great PM!) Staged conferences. Banned books (Spy catcher) Stopped History teaching in schools for nearly two years (she was worried how history would interpret her)
Mr H Tight control and use of Propaganda, Burnt what he felt were inappropriate books. Only allowed his doctrine in schools

Singled out groups in society for alternative treatment Mrs T near doubling of wages of Police and Military whilst declaring war on Union members. Shifted unemployed to invalidity benefit to avoid the embarrassment of higher unemployment figures (Note Saatchi and Saatchi campaign) Poll Tax impacted poorest, advantage to wealthy.
Mr H Infamously the Jews but he started on the Disabled, as well union members and socialists.

Thought they would go on for ever. Mrs T Totally convince she was a Boudicca of Britain. Founder of a political dynasty that would crush Socialism forever.
Mr H Thought the Third Reich Would last a thousand years.

Transport Mrs T Mrs spent money on developing Motorways (M25) Was that a good or bad thing?
Mr H Introduced Autobahns and those lovely people's car VW

Cuts Mrs T NHS, Education well anything state run. Cost to me my nearest and dearest life.
Mr H Went for growth and Europe wide expansion apparently.

Youth Organisation Mrs T Young Conservatives
Mr H Hitler Youth

 

[Common as Mook]

Finally Mrs T Matches with Mr H
Mrs T
Dictator 'A majority of one', as she would often say. She ruled her cabinet absolutely, opposition were removed (sacked) and politically destroyed.
Mr H
Total control of his cabinet, removal of opposition destroyed politically or actually.

Controls media Mrs T Kept tight allies in the Tory Media.Brainwashing techniques (some people still think she was great PM!) Staged conferences. Banned books (Spy catcher) Stopped History teaching in schools for nearly two years (she was worried how history would interpret her)
Mr H Tight control and use of Propaganda, Burnt what he felt were inappropriate books. Only allowed his doctrine in schools

Singled out groups in society for alternative treatment Mrs T near doubling of wages of Police and Military whilst declaring war on Union members. Shifted unemployed to invalidity benefit to avoid the embarrassment of higher unemployment figures (Note Saatchi and Saatchi campaign) Poll Tax impacted poorest, advantage to wealthy.
Mr H Infamously the Jews but he started on the Disabled, as well union members and socialists.

Thought they would go on for ever. Mrs T Totally convince she was a Boudicca of Britain. Founder of a political dynasty that would crush Socialism forever.
Mr H Thought the Third Reich Would last a thousand years.

Transport Mrs T Mrs spent money on developing Motorways (M25) Was that a good or bad thing?
Mr H Introduced Autobahns and those lovely people's car VW

Cuts Mrs T NHS, Education well anything state run. Cost to me my nearest and dearest life.
Mr H Went for growth and Europe wide expansion apparently.

Youth Organisation Mrs T Young Conservatives
Mr H Hitler Youth

The majority of that is absolutely pathetic. Can't believe I wasted a couple of minutes reading it.

 

[simmo]

Ah! A challenge, excellent. You start with a personal comment that I am not a 'sensible' historian. It is the role of historians to challenge, to shine a light, to sift through all the debris and find the truth no matter the distractions. I have made a very good living doing so and my analysis has to be correct or it can be personally costly ...that means out of the window goes dogma. Surely that's only for football fans.
You have chosen to examine the 1987 'Big Bang' . Historians always search for causes and consequences. What is happening now will have a root, the skill is to trace it. The current financial crisis rests in 1987. You know its like ripples in a pond. The stone was thrown in, 1987 and the ripples turned into an economic Tsunami, but it took time, it is rarely instant (e.g Entente Cordiale 1904 took until 1914 to reach its conclusion). The financial restrictions on banks had been put in place during the course of the 1930's by a National Government dealing with a crisis not too dissimilar to now. Restrictions on currency and lending were strictly maintained but Mrs T was set on shifting our economy to one of service rather than manufacturing. In part this emerged from her desire to destroy union power. She never forgot or forgave the teachers for 'Thatcher, Thatcher the milk snatcher'. What do they say about a woman scorned?
So Big Bang and removal of restrictions. This enabled greater investment and at first it seemed a success. Loans would become easy, the time of irresponsibility had begun. You are correct to say this continued once Blair came to power. He admired Thatcher and he and his Chancellor could not see the problem. They got cosy with the Tory media (Particularly the King maker Murdoch) and got into bed with the city. As Brown reflected in 2011, his biggest error in office was not to see that he needed to reverse the 1987 legislation. You are again correct to say he indeed added to it....big error and his arrogance stretch to saying boom and bust was a thing of the past. Looking at the debt situation it appears that this was in balance until 2008. The moment the chickens came home to roost. In the states so many unsustainable loans had been made, they could not be paid back. Our banks had lent to their banks without restriction and it unravelled. Dilemma for whoever was in power. In fact the opposition were consulted and it was decided to save the banks. The cost of this almost matches the increased debt mountain. The prudence Brown had shown up to 2008 was blow away. A future debate will exist on this point should they have let the banks collapse or as they decided bail them out. The error was Thatchers but she was aided by those who failed to act, step forward Major, Blair and Brown. If good men fail to act then they are as culpable.
The current deficit would in reality have been the same whatever party were in office as they all accepted the Thatcher way. So we come full circle. Much will lay at the door of Thatcher. It matters not that she was a Tory because whatever colour she wore she would have created havoc...she did.
Finally Mrs T Matches with Mr H
Mrs T
Dictator 'A majority of one', as she would often say. She ruled her cabinet absolutely, opposition were removed (sacked) and politically destroyed.
Mr H
Total control of his cabinet, removal of opposition destroyed politically or actually.

Controls media Mrs T Kept tight allies in the Tory Media.Brainwashing techniques (some people still think she was great PM!) Staged conferences. Banned books (Spy catcher) Stopped History teaching in schools for nearly two years (she was worried how history would interpret her)
Mr H Tight control and use of Propaganda, Burnt what he felt were inappropriate books. Only allowed his doctrine in schools

Singled out groups in society for alternative treatment Mrs T near doubling of wages of Police and Military whilst declaring war on Union members. Shifted unemployed to invalidity benefit to avoid the embarrassment of higher unemployment figures (Note Saatchi and Saatchi campaign) Poll Tax impacted poorest, advantage to wealthy.
Mr H Infamously the Jews but he started on the Disabled, as well union members and socialists.

Thought they would go on for ever. Mrs T Totally convince she was a Boudicca of Britain. Founder of a political dynasty that would crush Socialism forever.
Mr H Thought the Third Reich Would last a thousand years.

Transport Mrs T Mrs spent money on developing Motorways (M25) Was that a good or bad thing?
Mr H Introduced Autobahns and those lovely people's car VW

Cuts Mrs T NHS, Education well anything state run. Cost to me my nearest and dearest life.
Mr H Went for growth and Europe wide expansion apparently.

Youth Organisation Mrs T Young Conservatives
Mr H Hitler Youth

Are you mad. Are you seriously comparing Thatcher to Hitler? Or is this a

Controls the media, what the Guardian for example was shut down was it? Ben Elton/Billy Bragg etc. shot where they? Opposition leaders like Neil Kinnock, Michael Foot, David Steel, David Owen sent to concentration camps like German anti nazi's were in 1933.

How the hell do you know what she was like in cabinet? You speak like you have first hand experience. Which portfolio did you hold? Pray tell.

I can't be bothered to go through each point it is painful. You just make assumptions and accusations in there that are the thoughts of someone whom has too much time on their hands and through all your madness, you still have not answered my original question.

Forget all your blinkered bile, whom is more culpable for the present economic situation we as a country face in 2012 Gordon Brown (Chancellor 1997-2007, PM 2007-2010) or Maggie Thatcher (PM 1979-1990). You waffle on about Brown should have done this, Tories would have done the same blah, blah, assumptions assumption, could have, should have, would have. It is all BS, what did Brown actually do, is the thing that matters and whom is more to blame, Thatcher or Brown for the state of the country's finances in 2012.

 

[El Presidente]

Ah! A challenge, excellent. You start with a personal comment that I am not a 'sensible' historian. It is the role of historians to challenge, to shine a light, to sift through all the debris and find the truth no matter the distractions. I have made a very good living doing so and my analysis has to be correct or it can be personally costly ...that means out of the window goes dogma. Surely that's only for football fans.
You have chosen to examine the 1987 'Big Bang' . Historians always search for causes and consequences. What is happening now will have a root, the skill is to trace it. The current financial crisis rests in 1987. You know its like ripples in a pond. The stone was thrown in, 1987 and the ripples turned into an economic Tsunami, but it took time, it is rarely instant (e.g Entente Cordiale 1904 took until 1914 to reach its conclusion). The financial restrictions on banks had been put in place during the course of the 1930's by a National Government dealing with a crisis not too dissimilar to now. Restrictions on currency and lending were strictly maintained but Mrs T was set on shifting our economy to one of service rather than manufacturing. In part this emerged from her desire to destroy union power. She never forgot or forgave the teachers for 'Thatcher, Thatcher the milk snatcher'. What do they say about a woman scorned?
So Big Bang and removal of restrictions. This enabled greater investment and at first it seemed a success. Loans would become easy, the time of irresponsibility had begun. You are correct to say this continued once Blair came to power. He admired Thatcher and he and his Chancellor could not see the problem. They got cosy with the Tory media (Particularly the King maker Murdoch) and got into bed with the city. As Brown reflected in 2011, his biggest error in office was not to see that he needed to reverse the 1987 legislation. You are again correct to say he indeed added to it....big error and his arrogance stretch to saying boom and bust was a thing of the past. Looking at the debt situation it appears that this was in balance until 2008. The moment the chickens came home to roost. In the states so many unsustainable loans had been made, they could not be paid back. Our banks had lent to their banks without restriction and it unravelled. Dilemma for whoever was in power. In fact the opposition were consulted and it was decided to save the banks. The cost of this almost matches the increased debt mountain. The prudence Brown had shown up to 2008 was blow away. A future debate will exist on this point should they have let the banks collapse or as they decided bail them out. The error was Thatchers but she was aided by those who failed to act, step forward Major, Blair and Brown. If good men fail to act then they are as culpable.
The current deficit would in reality have been the same whatever party were in office as they all accepted the Thatcher way. So we come full circle. Much will lay at the door of Thatcher. It matters not that she was a Tory because whatever colour she wore she would have created havoc...she did.
Finally Mrs T Matches with Mr H
Mrs T
Dictator 'A majority of one', as she would often say. She ruled her cabinet absolutely, opposition were removed (sacked) and politically destroyed.
Mr H
Total control of his cabinet, removal of opposition destroyed politically or actually.

Controls media Mrs T Kept tight allies in the Tory Media.Brainwashing techniques (some people still think she was great PM!) Staged conferences. Banned books (Spy catcher) Stopped History teaching in schools for nearly two years (she was worried how history would interpret her)
Mr H Tight control and use of Propaganda, Burnt what he felt were inappropriate books. Only allowed his doctrine in schools

Singled out groups in society for alternative treatment Mrs T near doubling of wages of Police and Military whilst declaring war on Union members. Shifted unemployed to invalidity benefit to avoid the embarrassment of higher unemployment figures (Note Saatchi and Saatchi campaign) Poll Tax impacted poorest, advantage to wealthy.
Mr H Infamously the Jews but he started on the Disabled, as well union members and socialists.

Thought they would go on for ever. Mrs T Totally convince she was a Boudicca of Britain. Founder of a political dynasty that would crush Socialism forever.
Mr H Thought the Third Reich Would last a thousand years.

Transport Mrs T Mrs spent money on developing Motorways (M25) Was that a good or bad thing?
Mr H Introduced Autobahns and those lovely people's car VW

Cuts Mrs T NHS, Education well anything state run. Cost to me my nearest and dearest life.
Mr H Went for growth and Europe wide expansion apparently.

Youth Organisation Mrs T Young Conservatives
Mr H Hitler Youth

Whilst I loathe Thatcher and all she stood for, this is a pile of horseshit.

 

[BHA Swiifty]

No, you have proved yourself repeatedly over the last six months to be NSC's resident village idiot, despite a lot of competition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVzt2HSvUis

 

[Albumen]

Maggies a legend 2nd in modern times only to Churchill,she will get a great send off and i will be there

Either deluded or fishing. I'm guessing the latter. So many Tories on here, no wonder the Greens hit a raw nerve when they got in.

 

[Kumquat]

Do you reckon we can keep this thread goin until she, like, actually dies??