*** The official Keep Britain in the EU thread ***

[Soulman]

I


.Never mind benefits, we shouldn't have to accept east Europeans, to sleep 22 to a 2 bed flat, undercut the local unskilled/semi-skilled job market only to ship all that money home again. Those people don't earn enough to contribute to our pension pot - if they did, I might argue it was a price worth paying, but they don't.

.

This point is spot on. I have worked with thousands from Eastern Europe that adopt this stance. I have not run down these Eastern Europeans, they are generally nice people, but openly admit that their goal is to work as many hours as possible, not bothered about the rate as it is much much more than they can earn at home.
They are prepared to live many to a property because it is just a place to sleep and cheap.
Many are buying property/properties at home and their disposable income is not spent here. You can't blame them working our system.
The downside is that properties for our citizens are are fewer and so the price to buy/rent is very high, and of course the wages are lower.
Two people renting a one or two bed flat can not afford to but 7/8 Eastern Europeans all working can easily afford.
Doubt me if you like, but i have worked with over 100 Eastern Europeans in the last 6 months and believe it or not we do talk and discuss.
By the way, many work for a year, go home for 3 months, getting all their tax back, get OUR dole money for the 3 months...........then come back again.

 

[dingodan]

We would be better off being run by Sepp Blatters FIFA than we are being run by the EU.

 

[Soulman]

This from 2 years ago...... Farage and Merkel.... re Cameron and our position then, nothing seems to have changed.

 

[Triggaaar]

The reason that we simply must come OUT is because of the destination of the European project. It is a fallacy to think we can stay as we are with what the EU currently is and argue for or against that position. The EU is a runaway train whose every step is taken towards ever closer union and whose destination is nothing less than a complete 100% United States of Europe, with a european flag, parliament, currency, military, president and politicians. The end of national sovereign states, national laws, national currencies, national identities. It wont happen overnight but that's the destination on the front of the train. You think its about jobs or immigration, think again. Its about becoming no more or no less than a small state in a Federal United states of Europe with a european Goverment and european laws, the end of parliamentary democracy and sovereignty in this country. If youre comfortable of supporting of this, vote IN by all means, but if that makes you shudder then consider that when you hear the bullshit about how it will affect trade, jobs or how the real issue is about immigration.

You get on a bus with no stops whose destination says manchester, you'd better be sure you actually want to go to manchester. Because thats where youre going once the door closes whether you like it or not.

If that is where the train is headed, then I disagree that there are no stops and the doors won't open. Unlike Scotland, the UK has the choice to have a referendum on Europe whenever we like. We can stop the train (or bus) and get off. Obviously our government aren't giving us the chance to do that on a yearly basis, but we wouldn't arrive at the US of E without being given the chance again. To suggest we would is scaremongering as much as those saying we need the trade.

Other than that, I don't really disagree with you.

 

[cunning fergus]

If that is where the train is headed, then I disagree that there are no stops and the doors won't open. Unlike Scotland, the UK has the choice to have a referendum on Europe whenever we like. We can stop the train (or bus) and get off. Obviously our government aren't giving us the chance to do that on a yearly basis, but we wouldn't arrive at the US of E without being given the chance again. To suggest we would is scaremongering as much as those saying we need the trade.

Other than that, I don't really disagree with you.

You may be right, however past performance by EU and pro-EU national leaders does not indicate you are.

France and Holland rejected the European Constitution, and it came back as the Lisbon Treaty which was the European constitution in all but name.

Labour promised a referedum on it, Mandelson said it was a tidying up exercise and Brown was so embarrased to sign it he did it after the grand signing with other heads of state.

if that doesnt convince you the simple reality is that regardless of the outcome of our forthcoming referendum the EU as we know it now is going to change profundly.

It will be introducing a federal structure for the Eurozone countries in order to cope with the Euro crisis and therefore the policy decisions that this group will make will create a de-facto 2 speed Europe with the UK on the outside, with even less influence than we have now.

This new EU structure will mean the next referendum will be on the UK joining the euro.....................being outside the euro and in the EU will be prove the maxim that you cant be a little bit pregnant.

Those voting in, shouldnt do so unless they want the UK to join the euro, that is the logical next step even though our politicans wont say it is.

 

[melias shoes]

No, not at all, it's just part of the discussion about the impacts of leaving which might be relevant to some local people. Personally, I think the broader impact on the UK macro-economy of Brexit (which, in my view would be overwhelmingly negative in the medium to long term) is far more important than a few thousand potential jobs lost in the Brighton area, but I was simply pointing it out, given that many people on here might care about it. As I understand it, firms selling financial services in the EU have to have their European HQ in an EU member state, so Amex would be likely to move from Brighton if we leave and, as the largest private sector employer in the area by a substantial margin, that would definitely have a significant impact on the local economy. I guess it would also affect Amex's interest in sponsoring/supporting other local businesses - I look forward to the day when the Albion plays its home matches at the UKIP Community Stadium....

Point well put and taken.

 

[dingodan]

No, not at all, it's just part of the discussion about the impacts of leaving which might be relevant to some local people. Personally, I think the broader impact on the UK macro-economy of Brexit (which, in my view would be overwhelmingly negative in the medium to long term) is far more important than a few thousand potential jobs lost in the Brighton area, but I was simply pointing it out, given that many people on here might care about it. As I understand it, firms selling financial services in the EU have to have their European HQ in an EU member state, so Amex would be likely to move from Brighton if we leave and, as the largest private sector employer in the area by a substantial margin, that would definitely have a significant impact on the local economy. I guess it would also affect Amex's interest in sponsoring/supporting other local businesses - I look forward to the day when the Albion plays its home matches at the UKIP Community Stadium....

Sounds scary.

Although, you would have to then believe that every finance business in the City will have to leave London.

If you believe that is going to happen, Ok. I can't see it myself.

Let's assume for a moment that financial services based out of the City did not want to leave London. I guess the EU would then refuse to do business with any and all UK based finance businesses?

Again, I can't see that happening.

 

[melias shoes]

Remember my relatives standard of living in Southern Italy was actually very good before they moved to the Euro, they always had disposal income for new cars, clothes, holidays and other items, but as the years went on they have all become considerably poorer and on top of that they have to put with the influx of non EU economic migrants / asylum seekers appearing on their doorsteps.

The whole EU project is now a failure, unable to fully protect the borders to the EU Zone from outside, and unable to control the free movement of people between EU countries and it has also made it virtually impossible for any country to make any changes since it needs the vote of all other the countries first. The EU feels like a prison.

When the EU was just a handful of countries everybody pretty much stayed where they where because as you quite rightly pointed out everyone enjoyed near enough the same standards of living, there was no need for people to move, but then when all the other countries starting joining that's where it started going wrong which left the richer countries having to pay more out in things like benefits and spending more on their services to cope.

Spot on.

 

[melias shoes]

This point is spot on. I have worked with thousands from Eastern Europe that adopt this stance. I have not run down these Eastern Europeans, they are generally nice people, but openly admit that their goal is to work as many hours as possible, not bothered about the rate as it is much much more than they can earn at home.
They are prepared to live many to a property because it is just a place to sleep and cheap.
Many are buying property/properties at home and their disposable income is not spent here. You can't blame them working our system.
The downside is that properties for our citizens are are fewer and so the price to buy/rent is very high, and of course the wages are lower.
Two people renting a one or two bed flat can not afford to but 7/8 Eastern Europeans all working can easily afford.
Doubt me if you like, but i have worked with over 100 Eastern Europeans in the last 6 months and believe it or not we do talk and discuss.
By the way, many work for a year, go home for 3 months, getting all their tax back, get OUR dole money for the 3 months...........then come back again.

You're right mate. I come across it all the time. As you say they are nice people. I get on with them all.They know the system better than us.

 

[melias shoes]

Yes, we can rely on the grea British politician to make it better

Sorry HG you're deluded if you think this.

 

[melias shoes]

Fair enough although working for them on a regular basis you would possibly defend them. We will see in the run up to the referendum whether the BBC is unbiased.

They are biased full stop. Especially where the EU is concerned.

 

[Soulman]

They are biased full stop. Especially where the EU is concerned.

Really

"The Culture Secretary John Whittingdale has written to Rona Fairhead, the chairman of the BBC Trust suggesting it has not always reported impartially when it comes to Europe.

It follows claims of BBC bias during the general election when Express.co.uk revealed only 36% of the audience of the BBC leaders debate was right wing.
Nigel Farage was booed for his views on immigration during the televised debate, where he then suggested the audience was "remarkable even by the left-wing standards of the BBC".
The BBC banned Nigel Farage from a final debate and were forced to give him his own Question Time-style show after a major backlash."
http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...m-BBC-bias-John-Whittingdale-general-election

" The BBC is at the centre of a new row over bias in its coverage of Europe after it emerged that the broadcaster’s charitable arm has received more than £9 million directly from Brussels.
The charity, BBC Media Action, was paid the money to deliver key parts of the EU’s political strategy in countries on the fringes of Europe."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...um-bias-row-after-EU-pays-BBC-charity-9m.html

And just to balance things up......a report from the Guardian.

"BBC bosses have dismissed claims the corporation is obliged not to do anything to harm the European Union after admitting that some funding comes from Brussels.
MPs were told that £35m from the EU is put into an offshoot unit that provides broadcasting training in volatile overseas states and other money is “occasionally available”.
Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg suggested the funding would hamper the BBC’s ability to report on the upcoming referendum on Britain’s future in the EU impartially."
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/oct/20/bbc-bias-eu-coverage

 

[melias shoes]

I'm a pro-EU voter who as time has gone on, is increasingly prepared to be swayed. The reason I am pro-EU is the fear of being locked outside this free market of 300-400m people. I don't believe it will be easy to negotiate a favourable trading agreement with the EU. We are not super-wealthy per captia, like Switzerland or Norway and it feels to me like our future lies in exporting financial and innovation expertise. I worry we will lose ground in both of these areas by moving away from the EU.

On the other hand, the people who are passionately pro-EU (especially on here, but also the wider political arena) consistently fail to make good arguments to stay in. As has been pointed out, why the f*ck is the CAP still in place? I just don't believe that UK government after UK government have ALL taken the view that we'll sneer from the sidelines over such appalling EU policy, yet nothing ever changes. I don't want to subsidise crap French and Italian farming any more.

I know what I feel about immigration. It should be completely free movement for broadly similarly comparable economies, such as it was when the EU was 12 member states. Never mind benefits, we shouldn't have to accept east Europeans, to sleep 22 to a 2 bed flat, undercut the local unskilled/semi-skilled job market only to ship all that money home again. Those people don't earn enough to contribute to our pension pot - if they did, I might argue it was a price worth paying, but they don't.

We should have been negotiating hard to enforce these tweaks to free movement, and to remove the CAP. Unfortunately, Cameron is one of the poorest negotiators I think this country has ever had. He's no Thatcher, and he's no Blair. He's utterly dreadful.

Thank God he isn't Blair but agree Cameron isn't the greatest negotiator.

 

[Soulman]

They are biased full stop. Especially where the EU is concerned.

It's ok though the BBC have stated
"The Corporation insists it has taken recommendations on-board, and says that all of its editorial staff will be sent on “mandatory” course that will educate them about the inner workings of the European Union, and its relationship with the UK.".......yeah right.

 

[melias shoes]

. London might be number 1 but how much of this is due to being within the biggest economy in the world? You could argue it's rise to number 1 correlates quite nicely with the rise of the EU economy.

Absolute nonsense .

 

[dibsy]

Super thread being convincingly won by the Outs. I keep reading how if you are outside of the EU you have to sign up to 90% of the regulation to trade with it. I find it hard to believe China and countless other countries have signed up to labour laws and other regulations and yet we certainly do a lot of trade with them so I am afraid that argument just doesn't ring true with me.

I, like many others on here, have always been pro EU but I think I have had my fill now and think we should try it alone. My concern would be that the EU would make it as difficult as possible for us to discourage other nations from following suit - because if we get out and don't implode I guarantee you others will follow suit - Spain and Greece are hot on our heels I would suggest.

 

[melias shoes]

It's ok though the BBC have stated
"The Corporation insists it has taken recommendations on-board, and says that all of its editorial staff will be sent on “mandatory” course that will educate them about the inner workings of the European Union, and its relationship with the UK.".......yeah right.

 

[Simster]

Absolute nonsense .

Why is it nonsense?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Absolute nonsense .

Why?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Super thread being convincingly won by the Outs. I keep reading how if you are outside of the EU you have to sign up to 90% of the regulation to trade with it. I find it hard to believe China and countless other countries have signed up to labour laws and other regulations and yet we certainly do a lot of trade with them so I am afraid that argument just doesn't ring true with me.

As long as you meet certain standards of business anyone can trade with the EU as far as I know but it isn't free trading, they'll be quotas and tariffs like there are for China. To get the advantageous free-trade agreement, which say Norway and Switzerland enjoy, you have to go sign up to the vast majority of the rules.