The Official, 103rd Tour de France, thread

[1066familyman]

The Cycling Podcast chaps were saying much the same.
When looking down the top 10 nobody has any incentive to rock the boat.

It's new contract time for many, other are happy enough were they are, and finally they questioned whether Quintana was actually the rider he's been talked up, or is he just 'The Shadow' - la sombra




Unless something outrageous happens hindsight would suggest the course was all wrong and design specifically for Team Sky.

Begging the question:-

'How would you design next years Tour to bring out the best of the race'?

How about reducing the team numbers from 9 down to say 6 for starters? Let in a few more pro conti teams to make some of the numbers back up. Perhaps not back up to the 198 riders, which might also have the added bonus of helping to reduce the crashes.

Seems to me that if a team like Sky are bringing along a team full of super doms around the race favourite then you can play with the parcours all you like, but they'll still likely control the race and ultimately shut it down again.

 

[Stat Brother]

How about reducing the team numbers from 9 down to say 6 for starters? Let in a few more pro conti teams to make some of the numbers back up. Perhaps not back up to the 198 riders, which might also have the added bonus of helping to reduce the crashes.

Seems to me that if a team like Sky are bringing along a team full of super doms around the race favourite then you can play with the parcours all you like, but they'll still likely control the race and ultimately shut it down again.

Yeah that's been mentioned too, I'm not convinced, by virtue of the message it sends to The Pro Tour.
I think the ramifications of getting into Le Tour on a Pro Conti license (and not being French!!) could be far reaching.


In the time it's taken me to eat a yogurt I've decided the blame for this lies entirely with Peter Sagan.
Le Tour hasn't built a race for Sky, they've built one to stop PS winning 12 stages.

The flat stages have been too flat.
There hasn't been enough challenging rouleur stages.
Back loading mountains never works.

Imagine if the wind wasn't blowing down in Montpellier, there wouldn't have been any jeopardy in the entire race.


Le Tour needs to own the fact that Sagan is a freak of cycling, and will be talked about long after he's retired.
He's going to win multiple stages, no matter what.
So they might as well give them to him and use him to bait out the other teams.

All the highlights of this race have been Sagan or Froome and spectacularly, both together.
Embrace that, throw the 'rule book' away and challenge PS & Sky to win differently.

Less emphasis on HC mountains, more 'shark's tooth' profiles, gnarly flat stages, and a couple of really short wham-bang stages.

 

[Triggaaar]

Well I guess I enjoyed that more than the rest of you. Loved the fact that Zakarin was too knackered to do his top up. Poor bugger nearly fell off at the end. And quite how Sagan managed to do a one handed wheelie at the end, I have no idea.

Of course it would be great if someone could challenge Sky, but they're a team of monsters and that's enjoyable to watch for just how impressive they are.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Taking yellow out of it Yates closing to within 26secs of 2nd is pretty exciting, imagine what he could do with a GC machine around him!? He's looked incredibly assured on and off the bike this tour.

 

[Stat Brother]

Taking yellow out of it Yates closing to within 26secs of 2nd is pretty exciting, imagine what he could do with a GC machine around him!? He's looked incredibly assured on and off the bike this tour.

Hang on, hang on - This is Le Tour.
I wish I had to hand some pithy comment about how difficult it is to win a 'mans' sport with children!!

Of course you're right he looks fantastic, he's reading the race brilliantly and clearly is tactically astute.
But he's also only 23, and all of that is being done under the cloak of the white jersey.

He'll definitely win Grand Tours, World titles etc but right now I'll be slightly surprised to see him on the main podium in Paris.
Because it's very difficult to win anything when you're from a younger generation.

 

[Stat Brother]

Stage 18: Sallanches - Megève, 17 km

Well today's the day Quintana backs up yesterday's result and continues to chip away at the lead of an increasingly fragile looking Chris Froome.
This should make for an epic Friday and Saturday of racing as the 2 fight over the remaining few seconds...


...oh wait.



Prognostication:-

Froome
Porte
Yates.

 

[Indurain's Lungs]

How about reducing the team numbers from 9 down to say 6 for starters? Let in a few more pro conti teams to make some of the numbers back up. Perhaps not back up to the 198 riders, which might also have the added bonus of helping to reduce the crashes.

Seems to me that if a team like Sky are bringing along a team full of super doms around the race favourite then you can play with the parcours all you like, but they'll still likely control the race and ultimately shut it down again.

I think that would have the opposite effect. At least with 9 man teams there are more riders not trying to fight it out at the front - with 6 then you'd maybe have 30 teams all trying to get someone near the front.

Also, the UCI need to protect their beloved WT team status - its already obvious that the French teams are happy not to be WT as they know they'll get a Tour invite anyway.

There is no easy answer to course design but at least they mix it up now, think back to the 90s and it was so formulaic (prologue, week of flat, alps, transition, pyrenees, couple of flat time trials thrown in). The Dauphine is a bit of a testing ground so me may see some super short prologues uphill etc.

Trying to design a route with 1 or 2 riders in mind is stupid (think 2013 Giro and the long time trials to entice Wiggins) then the anti-Sky Tour routes with virtually no conventional TTs in.

Actually if you compare the time gaps in the GC to previous years, everything is much closer this year (especially if you look at 2 to 10).

 

[Bold Seagull]

The way I see it Sky are the only team that just go all out to win the tour with 1 leader, everyone else in support. It is a luxury most of the other teams don't subscribe to. It tripped them up in 2014 when Froome kept falling off and dropped out, because they had nothing else, no GC or potential stage winners. They limped through the rest of that tour. Can't see that anyone else makes that absolute level of commitment to a single rider, but I guess you can when they are as good as Froome. Not sure any changes to team numbers, or routes would change that at the moment.

For such a dominant team, they're not picking up victories in the other grand tours, it just seems such a singular focus on Le Tour, that they're leaving other teams behind that spread their commitments more. You can see why they create animosity with the approach, but can't argue with the success.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Enjoyed the Giro more than I am this tour. Not enough competition for the likes of Sky. It's all over.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

'How would you design next years Tour to bring out the best of the race'?

More mountain top finishes, no time trials.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Too even the field, bring in a salary cap.

Tour de France team budgets (estimated)
Team Sky – €35m
Katusha – €32m
BMC – €28m
Tinkoff – €25m
Astana – €20m
Etixx-Quick Step – €18m
Movistar – €15m
Lotto-Soudal – €14m
LottoNL-Jumbo – €14m
Dimension Data – €13.5m
Orica-BikeExchange – €13m
Giant-Alpecin – €12.5m
Trek-Segafredo – €12m
Ag2r La Mondiale – €12m
Cofidis – €11m
IAM Cycling – €10.5m
FDJ – €10m
Cannondale – €10m
Lampre-Merida – €7m
Direct Energie – €6m
Bora-Argon 18 – €4.5m
Fortuneo-Vital Concept – €3.5m

There's a big reason why Sky can dominate.

 

[Stat Brother]

There is no easy answer to course design but at least they mix it up now, think back to the 90s and it was so formulaic (prologue, week of flat, alps, transition, pyrenees, couple of flat time trials thrown in). The Dauphine is a bit of a testing ground so me may see some super short prologues uphill etc.

That doesn't half feel like what we've had this year.
The commentators seem to be saying 'a day off for the GC teams' rather a lot.

I can't see how more mountain top finishes changes that, as the pay off has to also be more 'easier' stages.

 

[Hamilton]

Too even the field, bring in a salary cap.

Tour de France team budgets (estimated)
Team Sky – €35m
Katusha – €32m
BMC – €28m
Tinkoff – €25m
Astana – €20m
Etixx-Quick Step – €18m
Movistar – €15m
Lotto-Soudal – €14m
LottoNL-Jumbo – €14m
Dimension Data – €13.5m
Orica-BikeExchange – €13m
Giant-Alpecin – €12.5m
Trek-Segafredo – €12m
Ag2r La Mondiale – €12m
Cofidis – €11m
IAM Cycling – €10.5m
FDJ – €10m
Cannondale – €10m
Lampre-Merida – €7m
Direct Energie – €6m
Bora-Argon 18 – €4.5m
Fortuneo-Vital Concept – €3.5m

There's a big reason why Sky can dominate.

That doesn't explain why Katusha and BMC aren't punching above their weight more. Brailsford is right, I think the others have to pull their socks up. It's a bike. Two wheels. With a bloke on it.

I think we also need to accept that Sky have identified some of the best talent and they've managed their squad so well. I agree with that. But, it doesn't explain why the other teams haven't managed to put up a fight. Movistar have been terrible - and I was tipping Quintana to win it (and I'd have been quite pleased if he had).

Yates though. There's a great hope for the future.

 

[pb21]

Dumoulin must be able to sustain some pretty mental wattage. That was a very impressive ride!

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

That doesn't explain why Katusha and BMC aren't punching above their weight more. Brailsford is right, I think the others have to pull their socks up. It's a bike. Two wheels. With a bloke on it.

I think we also need to accept that Sky have identified some of the best talent and they've managed their squad so well. I agree with that. But, it doesn't explain why the other teams haven't managed to put up a fight. Movistar have been terrible - and I was tipping Quintana to win it (and I'd have been quite pleased if he had).

Yates though. There's a great hope for the future.

BMC have better classics riders than Sky so they are more prominent in the early season races.

Katusha have been infighting between the GC and sprint teams.

Moviestar can't compete team wise if those figures are right. Sky's money allows them to have riders who could be GC contenders on other teams riding as Froome's domestiques. No teams can compete with that kind of money and firepower except maybe Astana at certain races.

 

[Hamilton]

Froome is fast becoming a legend.

 

[Triggaaar]

Dumoulin must be able to sustain some pretty mental wattage. That was a very impressive ride!

He must be gutted.

 

[pb21]

He must be gutted.

I think I am more impressed by Dumoulin's ride than Froome's.

Can imagine him winning future GTs in a similar manner to Wiggins.

 

[Triggaaar]

I think I am more impressed by Dumoulin's ride than Froome's.

He did have a bit of a rest yesterday though, while Froome was having to keep up with Porte.

 

[Indurain's Lungs]

The way I see it Sky are the only team that just go all out to win the tour with 1 leader, everyone else in support. It is a luxury most of the other teams don't subscribe to. It tripped them up in 2014 when Froome kept falling off and dropped out, because they had nothing else, no GC or potential stage winners. They limped through the rest of that tour. Can't see that anyone else makes that absolute level of commitment to a single rider, but I guess you can when they are as good as Froome. Not sure any changes to team numbers, or routes would change that at the moment.

For such a dominant team, they're not picking up victories in the other grand tours, it just seems such a singular focus on Le Tour, that they're leaving other teams behind that spread their commitments more. You can see why they create animosity with the approach, but can't argue with the success.

That doesn't explain why Katusha and BMC aren't punching above their weight more. Brailsford is right, I think the others have to pull their socks up. It's a bike. Two wheels. With a bloke on it.

I think we also need to accept that Sky have identified some of the best talent and they've managed their squad so well. I agree with that. But, it doesn't explain why the other teams haven't managed to put up a fight. Movistar have been terrible - and I was tipping Quintana to win it (and I'd have been quite pleased if he had).

Yates though. There's a great hope for the future.

BMC have better classics riders than Sky so they are more prominent in the early season races.

Katusha have been infighting between the GC and sprint teams.

Moviestar can't compete team wise if those figures are right. Sky's money allows them to have riders who could be GC contenders on other teams riding as Froome's domestiques. No teams can compete with that kind of money and firepower except maybe Astana at certain races.

Some of this stems from the singular focus of UK cycling in the tour and the Olympics.

Yes the tour is the biggest but the Italians need giro winners and the Spanish need vuelta winners. Likewise the Dutch/Belgians are mad for the classics.

Any other grand tour is usually am afterthought for sky and their tour focus means they have never signed any of the top classics talent. Their style is to go ruthlessly and unswerving at a single goal so never have 2 leaders.

Sky don't top the world tour or total no. season wins and it took 7 years and a dutchman to win them a monument.