[Politics] The Mail Woke List…..

[Crawley Dingo]

Finally, some common ground

As the "least worst" system, surely we need to do something to improve it? But it seems some of those efforts to do so would be dismissed as wokeism.

When you say immutable characteristics, what exactly are you referring too?

It seems to me that societies such as the US and UK where merit is king produce more losers than those that have a more we're-all-in-this-together attitude. Certainly, social mobility is better for those born in Copenhagen or Calgary than their counterparts in LA and London.

Social mobility ended in the UK around 2000. But they create more winners as well. I'm going to leave it here now and go and laugh at some Chelsea fans I know.

 

[Bakero]

Well thats a weird one, woke 1 or 2 describes philosophies which may or may not be identities but they are not immutable. But more to the point I was talking about non-consensual labels. If you object to the term woke then what would you prefer to be described as given a set of beliefs and behaviours? And given the latter you are saying that behaviours cannot be described if the person objects?

As I said weird post modernist take. What "wokies" seem to object to is having their behaviours identified and called out from a perspective they do not share.

I wouldn't call myself woke but you can call me whatever you want. I was merely pointing out your hypocrisy as it seems you get upset if people assign labels to those you like but you're happy to call people woke. Perhaps you don't remember saying that using "non-consensual derogatory labels...reveals you to be a nasty and arrogant person."

As a rule, I'm not anti-label as if you want to discuss things you need the nomenclature. The problem with the term woke, as many have already pointed out, is that it seems to be bandied about for whatever the right doesn't like that week. Maybe you feel the same for terms like alt-right but as the right wing dominate the media and power structures, that label isn't so prevalent despite the best efforts of the "Cultural Marxists"

 

[Bakero]

Was in the mail couple of weeks ago . Not the first time , it’s happened several times that transgender people start to get annoyed when they don’t get what they think they should be entitled to. Except they are not , I’m with team JK Rowling in this one . Common sense must prevail .

Isn't the common sense solution any-gender changing rooms? If the space allows, have male, female and any-gender. If not, just one for all, as some shops already do.

 

[The Clamp]

Was in the mail couple of weeks ago . Not the first time , it’s happened several times that transgender people start to get annoyed when they don’t get what they think they should be entitled to. Except they are not , I’m with team JK Rowling in this one . Common sense must prevail .

Ah. No slight against you but I don’t believe it.

 

[Boroseagull]

Think it's this case the OP referred to, and have to say if my daughter was one of the swimmers involved I would feel exactly the same.

https://humanevents.com/2023/07/29/british-swimming-changes-locker-room-rules-to-stop-65-year-old-trans-identified-male-from-watching-teen-girls-change-cloth

 

[Live by the sea]

Isn't the common sense solution any-gender changing rooms? If the space allows, have male, female and any-gender. If not, just one for all, as some shops already do.

Not one for all - it’s not what the majority of women ( real women ) want

 

[The Clamp]

Well, none of you need to wet the bed. Transgender women are not legally allowed into female changing rooms / toilets and haven’t been since April 2022, despite the Daily Mail continually doing polls on whether you think transgender women should be allowed in female changing rooms/ toilets.

 

[Bakero]

Not one for all - it’s not what the majority of women ( real women ) want

What if it's a small shop with one changing room?

Edit: seeing the post above, I guess you're referring to swimming pool changing rooms. I had shop fitting rooms in mind.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Well, none of you need to wet the bed. Transgender women are not legally allowed into female changing rooms / toilets and haven’t been since April 2022, despite the Daily Mail continually doing polls on whether you think transgender women should be allowed in female changing rooms/ toilets.

Yeah, but you can prove anything with facts

 

[The Clamp]

Yeah, but you can prove anything with facts

Indeed.

Still worth getting furious about though. Just incase they try to sneak in. Best run a story on it every few weeks.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Indeed.

Still worth getting furious about though. Just incase they try to sneak in. Best run a story on it every few weeks.

Maybe you're the man to ask.

The EU were controlling everything in the UK, so I voted Brexit to get rid of them and 'take back control' and that didn't work. Corbyn was going to make us communist, so I voted for Boris and that didn't work. Then it was the immigrants so I backed the Rwanda plan, the floating asylum centres etc and that didn't work. Now I know that it was the Wokes all along, I'm getting really really angry at everything woke that they are doing.

But my rent is still going up, I'm dreading my gas and electric bills next winter, the cost of living is killing me and I'm still earning the same as I have the last 6 years.

Is it because I'm not believing hard enough

 

[The Clamp]

Maybe you're the man to ask.

The EU were controlling everything in the UK, so I voted Brexit to get rid of them and 'take back control' and that didn't work. Corbyn was going to make us communist, so I voted for Boris and that didn't work. Then it was the immigrants so I backed the Rwanda plan, the floating asylum centres etc and that didn't work. Now I know that it was the Wokes all along, I'm getting really really angry at everything woke that they are doing.

But my rent is still going up, I'm dreading my gas and electric bills next winter, the cost of living is killing me and I'm still earning the same as I have the last 6 years.

Is it because I'm not believing hard enough

Yes but most importantly vote Tory next GE.
We have to give them a chance to fix Britain after the mess Labour left it in.

 

[Crawley Dingo]

I wouldn't call myself woke but you can call me whatever you want. I was merely pointing out your hypocrisy as it seems you get upset if people assign labels to those you like but you're happy to call people woke. Perhaps you don't remember saying that using "non-consensual derogatory labels...reveals you to be a nasty and arrogant person."

As a rule, I'm not anti-label as if you want to discuss things you need the nomenclature. The problem with the term woke, as many have already pointed out, is that it seems to be bandied about for whatever the right doesn't like that week. Maybe you feel the same for terms like alt-right but as the right wing dominate the media and power structures, that label isn't so prevalent despite the best efforts of the "Cultural Marxists"

The woke set of by calling themselves Woke, when it became clear what some of it was it then became a pejorative(Defund the police). There is no hypocrisy from me, but maybe others? So many on this thread claiming it is a fiction created by the tories but also complaining that its applied to everything.

There is also a clear difference in labelling ideas and labelling people.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Yes but most importantly vote Tory next GE.
We have to give them a chance to fix Britain after the mess Labour left it in.

That is so reassuring. I was worried that you were going to tell me I was stupid and got what I deserved. I will march forward with renewed vigour

Any idea when I'll get a pay rise

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Interesting thread - and not a lot of surprising stuff - I will have my tuppence worth

We live in what has now becoming known as the Age of Disorder - 50 years ago it would have been termed the Death Agony of Capitalism. Capitalism has inherent contradictions that cycle through boom and slump with the booms getting shorter and the slumps getting longer, deeper and more pronounced. The last 75 years were characterised by the post-war boom - followed by neo-liberalism (Thatcherism) and globalisation - and now retrenchment as the global economy enters a period of pro-longed slow contraction. The global economy is heading for a Japanisation of economic activity (Japan has been in stagnation since a deflationary recession in the mid-1990s) - with China in particular facing severe economic crisis. Couple with economic developments we have the newly emerging cold war between the USA (and the EU) with China (and the Ukraine War is in part a proxy war being fought out in this new cold war).

The hay day for social democracy was the post-war period when massive rebuilding was necessary after the war and the US economy which avoided any destruction during the war was able to pump huge amounts of money into Western Europe to stave off the revolutionary upheavals that occurred after WW1. The demise of social democracy occurred with the crash of 1973 and the rise of neo-liberalism and every single social democratic party globally went through a process of (for want of a better word) Blairisation - an acceptance of globalisation and the dominance of capitalism following the collapse of Stalinism.

Over the past 20-25 years there has been an upsurge of struggle globally as oppressed sections of society have acted to gain their rights - third and fourth wave feminism (and particularly movements for abortion rights and against gender violence) - campaigns for LGBTQ+ rights - anti-racism movements (e.g. BLM) - movements by indigenous populations (e.g. in Brazil, Mexico, Bolivia) - movements demanding action on climate destruction - a refugee crisis caused by war and climate catastrophe etc.

In the middle of all of this the Covid pandemic hit - causing massive political, social and economic upheaval - and leading to massive pressure on society that forced bulges and bursts at the seams. One of the phenomenons of these bulges and bursts was the rapid rise of far-right ideas - ideas that had been held in check by the post-war boom and later globalisation - but now were returning to the surface as capitalism was facing a deepening crisis. The far-right tapped into the chaos caused by Covid, mounting anti-mask, anti-vax, covid denial campaigns that many people fearful of the future were impacted by. At the same time - the far-right, with the support of right-wing political parties, began pushing back against the movements against oppression - Brexit was a symptom of this - but it has been manifest more directly recently in things like attacks on trans people, increase racism and xenophobia, a rise in misogyny (the Andrew Tate phenomenon) etc. The response to this has been a rise in what has become known as intersectionality - which is very dispersed when in the hands of liberals - but which at its root is based in the class nature of capitalist society.

The rise of the far-right globally is developing as a serious threat. It is of a different character of the 1920s and the 1930s (and the Spanish Flu pandemic played a role in the rise of fascism in the inter-war period). The base of support for fascism is among the middle-class layers (in the 1920s small shopkeepers) and among middling to larger farming classes. Both of these sections of society have been dramatically reduced since WW2 (from 30% of the population in the 1930s to 5-10% today). Fascism has also relied on an alienated underclass of society who have been cut off from any levers of economic power (what in the past would have been crudely classified as the lumpen proletariat). Fascist elements still rely on this section of society today - and they exist in every country.

Modern fascist groups promote an eclectic mix of anti-Covid stuff with racism, xenophobia, Islamophobia, misogyny, and Christian fundamentalism (as bad - indeed if not worse - than the Taliban). I haven't seen evidence of a major rise of religious fundamentalism in Britain - but it most definitely a factor in Ireland (and places like USA, Brazil, Poland, Hungary, India, Australia etc). The far-right are targeting some of the most vulnerable sections of society - the trans community, refugees, and women facing crisis pregnancies. They are also targeting the teaching of sex-education in schools (in Ireland they have ben targeting libraries and abusing library staff for stocking books 'promoting transgenderism and paedophilia') - teachers, including me, have been targeted for supporting sex education and trans rights in schools.

The right-wing media and political parties have been promoting this stuff by hyping up the opposition to this type of discrimination and oppression as 'Woke' - which has become a catch phrase for anyone opposing the discriminatory attacks of the far-right. In Britain Suniak has been engaging in a major push against refugees and migrants - specifically targeting the Muslim community (a hang-over of Hindu caste society and Hindu islamophobia) - and remember Suniak is a former banker with Goldman Sachs - like half the prime ministers in Europe. From their perspective - the far-right are a useful tool to push back against movements against oppression (against so-called 'woke culture') as a mechanism of dividing the mass of the population to secure the rule of capital.

The Age of Disorder will grow - capitalism is incapable of working its way out of the current decline it faces (short of another catastrophic world war) - but the whiff of reaction will inevitably produce a reaction against it. While the far-right do get an echo among people in middle age and some of the elderly - the vast majority of young people and those in their 20s are utterly repelled by it and do take to the streets in opposition. In recent times we have seen mass protests in Israel against Netenyahu's attempt to form a bonapartist regime - in France over the new pension law and the racist murder of a young man by the police - in Georgia against the 'foreign agents' law - in Nigeria against the governments economic programme - in Serbia, initiated by a school-shooting, but now targeting corruption of the far-right Vucic government - in Iran following the murder of Mahsa Amini in police custody - in Poland against the death of women facing crisis pregnancies etc.

The rise of the far-right in recent times is the direct responsibility and directly caused by the collapse of the social democratic parties into neo-liberalism (Blairism). It has created a political vacuum that has yet to be filled from the left - and as a result the far-right gain an echo among certain sections of society. While in most countries they are still small in number - they are still a danger (the attack on the refugee hostel in Liverpool - similar stuff has happened in Ireland). The key to pushing back against the far-right and the increasingly right-wing and xenophobic policies of the likes of the Tories - is the trade union movement. They form a coherent collective for working class action - and have the organisational resources to build a movement of opposition to right-wing and far-right policies. The potential is greater in Britain than currently in Ireland - Britain is currently going through a sustained strike wave (there is only one trade union in Ireland - Unite - with a left-wing leadership) - and a mass movement of opposition to the Tories (and later Starmer) could emerge from this strike wave. Corbyn had the opportunity but bottled it by refusing to act against the Blairites in the LP - and if he had any backbone he would now throw the political capital he still has behind Enough is Enough and use it to build a new left party in Britain. However - he probably will show the same spinelessness as he did while LP leader - so the process will be more protracted.

Woke is being used as a term of insult - but the real insult is the attempts to return to the far-right politics of the 1920s and the 1930s (and yes - Churchill was a white supremacist) - and those who are willing to oppose the racism, homophobia, transphobia, xenophobia etc of the far-right agitators should be supported by all decent human beings.

Very interesting post. I was with you up to Corbyn, who you seem to regard as someone who should and could have done better. I would argue that he doesn't have the skill set to do better.

Corbyn doesn't lack backbone. He lacks a clear goal (Marxism? No.), clear strategy, clear tactics, and the ability to get the nation behind him. Protesting, waving placards, being serenaded at Glasto, and refusing to vote with your own party is not the hallmark of leadership. I wouldn't mind him being red in tooth a claw. What I did mind was his vacillation (slow on everything, lack of plausible plan) and inability to deal with awkward issues (like Israel).

The more the likes of you and I dwell on Corbyn the more the right laughs at us. I know Corbyn did well against Johnson. But he lost. To Johnson. A proven liar and charlatan. He lost to Johnson. That is a monumental, almost unprecedented failure. Looking back it seems even worse now. I'm glad he has slunk off to his constituency. He said he would hold Starmer to account. He must approve of Starmer then because we haven't heard a peep from him. Useless. Utterly useless. He makes me angry. He served us up Johnson. Unforgivable.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Very interesting post. I was with you up to Corbyn, who you seem to regard as someone who should and could have done better. I would argue that he doesn't have the skill set to do better.

Corbyn doesn't lack backbone. He lacks a clear goal (Marxism? No.), clear strategy, clear tactics, and the ability to get the nation behind him. Protesting, waving placards, being serenaded at Glasto, and refusing to vote with your own party is not the hallmark of leadership. I wouldn't mind him being red in tooth a claw. What I did mind was his vacillation (slow on everything, lack of plausible plan) and inability to deal with awkward issues (like Israel).

The more the likes of you and I dwell on Corbyn the more the right laughs at us. I know Corbyn did well against Johnson. But he lost. To Johnson. A proven liar and charlatan. He lost to Johnson. That is a monumental, almost unprecedented failure. Looking back it seems even worse now. I'm glad he has slunk off to his constituency. He said he would hold Starmer to account. He must approve of Starmer then because we haven't heard a peep from him. Useless. Utterly useless. He makes me angry. He served us up Johnson. Unforgivable.

Na - Corbyn's problem was lack of a spine. Once elected as LP leader he knew (or at the very least should have known) that the Blairites in the PLP and in the LPHQ would have the knives out for him. Look back on my posts here at the time - I argued that Corbyn needed to implement mandatory re-selection of all LP MPs, because the PLP no longer represented the hundreds of thousands of members that were in and joining the LP because of Corbyn's victory (the LP membership has collapsed because the Blairites have expelled tens of thousands and most of the rest have just left). Instead of removing the Blairites from control in the LP, he attempted to accommodate them (a bit like Allende bringing the Chilean generals into the government a couple of months before the coup in 1973).

Corbyn and those around him did have policies - and policies that were very popular with the British voting public - often in the 60%-70% range of approval. In the 2017 general election Corbyn got more votes than any other LP leader since Blair in 1997 (when a donkey would have got the votes because the Tories were so mired in sleaze and corruption). In 2019 he still got more votes than any LP leader since 1997. The Tories won the 2019 election because the campaign was actively sabotaged by the LP HQ and the Blairites in the PLP in connivance with the media (all the anti-Semitism stuff was part of that). Corbyn helped by refusing to stick to his previous position on the EU and Starmer took advantage by muddying the waters during the campaign.

Now - Corbyn was responsible for all of this and letting Johnson back in - but the reason why it happened was because of his refusal or inability to challenge the Blairites and remove them from positions of power in the LP. What happened in 2019 was always going to happen given Corbyn's approach. And by the way - other LP leaders have had far more disastrous results against corrupt Tories. I mean Ed Miliband lost to an incompetent Tory who is best known for f*cking a dead pig - and Starmer could f*ck-up and let the Tories back in again.

I agree with you that Corbyn has been as quite as a mouse - and that is doing nothing more than showing a wobbly spine - and it is perfectly reasonable to be angry. He had an opportunity to make a massive change in British society and (with McDonnell) succeeded in chucking it down the toilet. Unfortunately that does not take away from the necessity to actually do what Corbyn should have done. With that opportunity now in the dustbin of history, the British working class have a difficult task to rebuild something resembling a fighting left party - and there will likely be more than one false dawn before they get there.

The one key determinant at the moment is that the Age of Disorder is bringing political, economic, climate and societal chaos to the door or every human being - it cannot be avoided. New political formations will be catapulted into power out of nothing, often in only a few months (or at times of extreme crisis, even weeks). New parties are popping up all over the place - for the moment largely on the far-right, but young people and those in their 20s and early 30s who are struggling to put a roof over their heads and food on the table, will have no choice but to fight (and that is partly what is going on with the strike wave in Britain at the moment).

To demonstrate the scale of the crisis in Ireland - we have a major teacher shortage, very severe in larger urban areas and at acute crisis in Dublin. A teacher's starting salary in Ireland is about €40K (about £35K) significantly higher in the UK. Yet schools are not even getting teachers to apply for jobs in Dublin because they cannot afford to live there because of the cost of rental accommodation. Instead hundreds of Irish teachers head to the Middle East every year. One example of dozens I could list.

It is inevitable there will be a breech in the wall of right-wing neo-liberalism and once the floodgates open all bets are off.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Social mobility ended in the UK around 2000. But they create more winners as well. I'm going to leave it here now and go and laugh at some Chelsea fans I know.

Social mobility never existed in Britain - it was an illusion created to give the semblance that people's lives could improve. The improvements that did take place were not because of 'social mobility' but because the trade union movement fought tooth and nail for any and every improvement in wages and conditions.

 

[Bakero]

The woke set of by calling themselves Woke, when it became clear what some of it was it then became a pejorative(Defund the police). There is no hypocrisy from me, but maybe others? So many on this thread claiming it is a fiction created by the tories but also complaining that its applied to everything.

There is also a clear difference in labelling ideas and labelling people.

So in your view ideas can be labelled woke but not people?

Trump could be accused of holding fascistic ideas but not of being a fascist himself?

And to be clear, wokeism destroys meritocracy but meritocracy is a flawed ideology?

Lastly, the judging and rewarding of which "immutable characteristics" would lead to the UK becoming a kleptocracy?

 

[BadFish]

That is so reassuring. I was worried that you were going to tell me I was stupid and got what I deserved. I will march forward with renewed vigour

Any idea when I'll get a pay rise

When the BBC are defunded and the teachers and nurses stop hogging all the money. Oh and immigrants.

 

[The Clamp]

So in your view ideas can be labelled woke but not people?

Trump could be accused of holding fascistic ideas but not of being a fascist himself?

And to be clear, wokeism destroys meritocracy but meritocracy is a flawed ideology?

Lastly, the judging and rewarding of which "immutable characteristics" would lead to the UK becoming a kleptocracy?

That Dingo, he doesn’t half talk a load of bollocks.