[Politics] The Mail Woke List…..

[Acker79]

Brag?
Half of the people on the DM list have a job description that requires them to speak in public.
Why did you use the word brag?

I guess I was being too subtle. It was a light-hearted post based on the responses to the 'rich lists' that get posted every so often.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Agree completely.
I also would want to challenge the view that teachers now teach students/pupils/young people what to think rather than how to think. This is nostalgia, pure and simple. There used to be facts, Mr Gradgrind. Now critical thinking is far more important for educationalists (if not, governments and curriculum-designers), which encourages healthy scepticism where appropriate.
But as to your historical point, I think I differ. Things shifted in 2008 when the neoliberal financialised globalisation hegemonic framework fell flat on its face. Prior to 2008 in many parts of the world, 'postpolitics' predominated (this basically entails the shutting down of debates, the view that all core questions were settled, ie 'the end of history', etc). Since then, we're in a struggle for a new hegemonic framework to appear, which it is yet to do.
You are right on the US in 2004, however, and indeed before that. This is because despite the ascendancy of the neoliberal financialised globalisation hegemonic framework, it was inflected by the culture wars, which have had a far longer history there than elsewhere, but they're becoming set in most of Europe these days, which we all know to our cost.

Spot on.

It was predicted that Sunak will grasp at any bollocks to save his party's arse, and his recent war against ULEZ, and continuation of the Rwanda fiasco are designed to create a narrative that doesn't exist - that anyone who opposes the tories is by definition 'woke' and thus a bad person. Possibly a traitor.

f*** off Sunak, you rubbish weasel.

 

[jcdenton08]

Where did I give the impression I condoned it?

You didn’t, neither did I say you did

 

[Bakero]

Agree completely.
I also would want to challenge the view that teachers now teach students/pupils/young people what to think rather than how to think. This is nostalgia, pure and simple. There used to be facts, Mr Gradgrind. Now critical thinking is far more important for educationalists (if not, governments and curriculum-designers), which encourages healthy scepticism where appropriate.
But as to your historical point, I think I differ. Things shifted in 2008 when the neoliberal financialised globalisation hegemonic framework fell flat on its face. Prior to 2008 in many parts of the world, 'postpolitics' predominated (this basically entails the shutting down of debates, the view that all core questions were settled, ie 'the end of history', etc). Since then, we're in a struggle for a new hegemonic framework to appear, which it is yet to do.
You are right on the US in 2004, however, and indeed before that. This is because despite the ascendancy of the neoliberal financialised globalisation hegemonic framework, it was inflected by the culture wars, which have had a far longer history there than elsewhere, but they're becoming set in most of Europe these days, which we all know to our cost.

2008's financial crisis was indeed a mortal blow for the Fukuyamaites and perhaps the trigger for the seemingly all-encompassing culture wars we have today. The roots of the current woes go deeper though, particularly to the likes of Strom Thurmond in the States and the GOP's Southern Strategy. Of course, the issues in the UK are different but American ideas don't take long to sweep across the Atlantic. And we know who's funding those Tufton Street thinktanks.

 

[willalbion]

That you don't know that many of these "woke" types despise people like you is funny.

Not for any other reason that you happen to be some old white guy. Welcome to 2023.

That’s quite a statement.

 

[Machiavelli]

I think we violently agree. By and large.

I seem to recall that mainstream parliamentary tories found Thatcher a bit weird (neoliberal, as you say, and female) but left her to crack on as it seemed so....exciting and....popular (outside of trade union circles, which were ever-decreasing).

But my point was that whereas Thatcher can be argued to have created genuine (direction-forward) change, this is not the usual hallmark of the conservative mindset, which is....conservative (against change). Perhaps this was why Thacher was ruthlessly dispatched when it looked like she might lose the GE - to that oaf Kinnock of all people.

Now, something that may have changed the traditional landscape and the way we view it is this: To beat Labour, 'call me Dave' channeled Tony Blair. At the same time the tories started to welcome ethnic minorities as members and parliamentary candidates. They have an obvious socially liberal element now, and I genuinely believe that many of them truly support socialist institutions such as the NHS, the fire service and even (as will unfold) the emerging modern, accountable and tax-payer funded (and hence socialist) police force. That's . . . .weird.

Ironically I am unsure that the tories quite realize where they are now. They have always been a morphing party of winners, but I am at a loss to understand what they stand for now. Traditional values (such as gay marriage)? Nope. Free enterprise (such as the spaffing during Covid - my barber was handed £10K, for example)? Nope. Free trade with Europe (after Brexit? Clearly not.) Bashing the unions (and giving in to the nurses, and eventually the doctors)? Nope.

To be fair, Labour ditched socialism when Blair ditched clause 4 and embraced PPF. Times change and those who don't change with the times will be out-evolved by those who are nimbler and fleeter of foot.

Maybe all this is good, and maybe now we can decide who to vote for based on issues rather than doctrine. I suspect a lot of the public's cynicism is that both parties are today trying to sell their policies as if they resonate with some sort of strong central set of principles: socialism and conservatism. At that point I suspect we can agree that this is where reality and hubris collide.

Yes, I'll violently agree with that ...
... by and large

 

[BadFish]

On second thoughts,

Yeah bloody woke left, with their austerity and Brexit ruining the country.

Vote Tory we'll sort out the mess.

 

[chickens]

Could someone please define woke for me?

I believe the OED has it as “aware of social and political issues.”

 

[cloud]

I believe the OED has it as “aware of social and political issues.”

I think it's more than just awareness. It's having to openly declare your adherence to these issues, instead of quietly believing.
If you are an introvert that can be a very painful process to go through.

 

[shingle]

That list is not entirely correct as Jeremy Vine is missing.

 

[chickens]

I think it's more than just awareness. It's having to openly declare your adherence to these issues, instead of quietly believing.
If you are an introvert that can be a very painful process to go through.

The definition is simply awareness of (as in awake to)

I think there are a lot of right-wing grifters trying to forge a career out of piggybacking off of individual bitterness and frustration, and trying to present “wokeness” as a determined secret society trying to overturn everything our society holds dear, but it simply ain’t so.

Don’t mistake a few rabid twitter warriors (on either side of the debate) as representative of anything more than themselves. Most of the people I know want to live their lives peacefully with respect for all, and want the same peace to be available to everyone else.

I think a lot of those people feel disenfranchised by the heated, polarised nature of the debate and swerve it altogether. That doesn’t mean anything more than that they have the wisdom to not get sucked in to a socially engineered battle against a straw man.

 

[RandyWanger]

Culture wars, the ultimate distraction from the real issues.

 

[nicko31]

Culture wars, the ultimate distraction from the real issues.

They’ve tried everything, they’ve got nothing left.

The war on anyone fighting climate change is going to be their new Brexit

 

[Crawley Dingo]

……..includes the Archbishop of Canterbury, the DG of the National Trust, Linekar, Michael Sheen, ITV’s CEO, Dame Alison Rose (natch) and the Chief Constable of Avon and Somerset.

They’re not even pretending any more

Who actually reads this shit? (I don’t but it did get pushed on to my Twitter feed).

The modern version of Woke means equity or social justice, this destroys merit and to an extent choice. So types of cultural marxism. From what I see on that snapshot the Mail is on point here.

The level of ignorance on this Forum is truly shocking.

 

[Chicken Run]

The modern version of Woke means equity or social justice, this destroys merit and to an extent choice. So types of cultural marxism. From what I see on that snapshot the Mail is on point here.

The level of ignorance on this Forum is truly shocking.

Ignorance, I doubt it, what is a shame is a mess of a thread like this approaching nearly 200 posts (9 pages) in less than 24 hours, yet well meaning thread in memory of one of our own and a true legend off the front page and 39 replies

 

[Guinness Boy]

Ignorance, I doubt it, what is a shame is a mess of a thread like this approaching nearly 200 posts (9 pages) in less than 24 hours, yet well meaning thread in memory of one of our own and a true legend off the front page and 39 replies

And you've just bounced it.....

 

[Guinness Boy]

The level of ignorance on this Forum is truly shocking.

Don't worry, it'll increase significantly when you finally do something stupid enough to get banned.

 

[Bakero]

The modern version of Woke means equity or social justice, this destroys merit and to an extent choice. So types of cultural marxism. From what I see on that snapshot the Mail is on point here.

The level of ignorance on this Forum is truly shocking.

What's wrong with equity and social justice?

Sounds good to me. Not so sure about your theories of Cultural Marxism though. Can you elaborate as to why you feel this is something we should buy into.

 

[Jim in the West]

Culture wars, the ultimate distraction from the real issues.

And it'll just get worse over the next year or so. The Tories have stopped trying to do anything positive to deal with all the sh1t they've loaded on us over the past 13 years. The country is absolutely on its knees, but all we get is these toxic culture wars. Buckle in for another year of misery, and the likes of Rees-Mogg extolling the virtues of climate change. Utterly depressing.

 

[Live by the sea]

I think many people are entrenched in their own views . For example the daily mail will often highlight a story that shows an immigrant or a black person in a bad light . The Guardian will often highlight a story that demonstrates that white people need the be educated better about casual racism etc

Both newspapers will usually have an element of truth about them to make the story but it doesn’t mean it’s a majority issue .

The mail likes to make people think immigration is bad as it causes more crime etc and the Guardian wants people to think it’s fighting for minorities and it’s the majority white population that need re educated.

The truth is somewhere in the middle . There are people on both sides that are intolerant .

It used to be fairly exclusively the far right , not any more.