[Politics] The Mail Woke List…..

[Acker79]

Of course, this list is only based on publically admitted wokeness. There's probably people more woke than those on the list, they just don't brag about it in public.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I beg to differ. Conservatives are concerned about change, rather than against it. Thatcher changed things. The rampant right that we've been afflicted with over the past decade or so also embrace change: they want to change things back to a century or two ago when the sun never set on the Empire, patriarchy ruled supreme, children worked down the pit, there were no weekends, holidays, maternity leave let alone paternity leave, ...
It's why the Minister for the Eighteenth Century is their cheerleader supreme.

Thatcher changed back. She took away rights and freedoms of the working class that had been won after the war, and wisely accepted (grudgingly by most, and not at all by some) by the parliamentary Conservative party as part of the post-war consensus. Thatcher hated that. As you go on to acknowledge. But this means they are indeed against change. Being instinctively against gay marriage, the right to strike and anything muslimy isn't being 'concerned about change'; it is about taking us back to the 1930s, when workers knew their place.

It is ironic that this is supported by many low income people who seem content to know their place, their station - the old and pathetic unctuous attitude of an element of the working class that feel slightly superior to the lowest of the low.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Either way, she wasn’t Afro-Caribbean…

Indeed but who is saying only Mediterranean people can act in Anthony and Cleopatra?

The examples you've given are from a very small minority who want to make their voices heard, not from society as a whole.

As for our resident Australian troll, of course, people of colour can be racist. Indian people look down on Africans for instance.

It is nothing to do with race or colour. It is about live and let live.
What is wrong with that?
Only those who want to sow division are up in arms about it, trying to find things to criticise, almost every day. Maybe that's what validates them?

 

[The Clamp]

A fantastic writer and mind wrote about it.

Woke Racism: How a New Religion Has Betrayed Black America

In his new book, John McWhorter argues that a neoracism, disguised as antiracism, is hurting Black communities in this country. According to McWhorter, the problem is that a well-meaning but pernicious form of antiracism has become, not a progressive ideology, but a religion. In Woke Racism...

news.columbia.edu

Ah, I was really looking for an answer to my question.

But I wasn’t expecting one. So I’m not too disappointed.

 

[Machiavelli]

You seem to have fallen into the trap of categorising people, Mo.

Recent generations = narrow-minded
Teachers = brainwashers
Society at large = insecure, shallow and polarised

I take issue with most of that but also sense we've become increasingly polarised in recent years. Our tribal instincts mean we're predisposed to in-group thinking and defining ourselves against the other side. When I make a humorous comment on a thread line this I'm effectively nailing my colours to the mast, knowing a like-minded individual will give me a thumbs up.

Big issues like Brexit have added fuel to the divisions we see today though, and the fires are continually stoked by the likes of the Mail's unabated othering. Ezra Klein's book on polarisation mentions a political ad from 2004 in which a couple, played by actors, are asked what they think of Howard Dean:

“Well,” says the husband , “I think Howard Dean should take his tax-hiking, government-expanding, latte-drinking, sushi-eating, Volvo-driving, New York Times-reading....” - in steps the wife - " body-piercing, Hollywood-loving, left-wing freak show back to Vermont, where it belongs.”

You can see where Suella "tofu-eating wokerati" Braverman and Mark "Negroni-swilling establishment" Dolan get their inspiration from.

All considered, I'm not sure if the UK is more polarised than in the past or if it's just amplified by certain politicians, publications and social media. I don't get such an impression of a divided nation when I'm out in the real world.

Agree completely.
I also would want to challenge the view that teachers now teach students/pupils/young people what to think rather than how to think. This is nostalgia, pure and simple. There used to be facts, Mr Gradgrind. Now critical thinking is far more important for educationalists (if not, governments and curriculum-designers), which encourages healthy scepticism where appropriate.
But as to your historical point, I think I differ. Things shifted in 2008 when the neoliberal financialised globalisation hegemonic framework fell flat on its face. Prior to 2008 in many parts of the world, 'postpolitics' predominated (this basically entails the shutting down of debates, the view that all core questions were settled, ie 'the end of history', etc). Since then, we're in a struggle for a new hegemonic framework to appear, which it is yet to do.
You are right on the US in 2004, however, and indeed before that. This is because despite the ascendancy of the neoliberal financialised globalisation hegemonic framework, it was inflected by the culture wars, which have had a far longer history there than elsewhere, but they're becoming set in most of Europe these days, which we all know to our cost.

 

[nicko31]

The opinion pieces in the Guardian/Telegraph or any other paper aren't the major issue with those papers in my view - you can at least see it's somebody's opinion.
It's the way that they report the same stories but with a slightly different slant that's more insidious.
To give a trivial example from the Guardian (since I recently cancelled my Times subscription), the other day they reported a story about a batch of cider produced by Jeremy Clarkson's farm needing to be disposed of due to a safety concern over the bottles. (Apparently some had over fermented and could explode).
Quite why this needed a couple of paragraphs tagged on the end listing various controversies Clarkson's been involved in escaped me. This was left out of reports of the same story I saw elsewhere.

I’d prefer the Guardian wouldn’t bother I’m at all with Clarkson, it’s not newsworthy

 

[The Clamp]

Erm, I actually can on this one.

Racism is defined as “prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalised.”

There is an uncomfortably large number of people in black communities who truly understand racism to be “prejudice against black people”. Indeed I have seen numerous videos/posts/comments where people have said exactly that, or quite literally “black people can’t be racist”. Now, the reason I am mentioning black people in this example is because of BLM, which was huge as a social justice movement alongside the likes of MeToo.

A much more specific and personal example was the casting of a trans performer playing a female part in a recent production of “Legally Blonde: The Musical” at the Regents Park Open Air Theatre. The performer in question got very poor reviews due to being miscast and unable to sing the score as written, and proceeded to say “I don’t care what a bunch of straight/white people say, this show isn’t for them, it’s for all the queer people and people of colour”.

Now, it goes without saying if a performer came out and said “I don’t care what a bunch of gay/black people say, this show isn’t for them, it’s all for the straight people and white people” they would be sacked. From the show, by their agent, and probably have their social media shut down too. They would be “cancelled”.

I was hoping for an answer from TB and names of the “lots of racists”

But I appreciate your efforts, certainly closer to an answer than his.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Of course, this list is only based on publically admitted wokeness. There's probably people more woke than those on the list, they just don't brag about it in public.

Brag?
Half of the people on the DM list have a job description that requires them to speak in public.
Why did you use the word brag?

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

I’d prefer the Guardian wouldn’t bother I’m at all with Clarkson, it’s not newsworthy

Well in this case it might be if you've happened to buy a case of that batch of cider and it goes off in your face.
Probably unusual for a business that small, but it's not particularly odd for a paper to report vaguely interesting/amusing product recalls.

 

[Machiavelli]

Thatcher changed back. She took away rights and freedoms of the working class that had been won after the war, and wisely accepted (grudgingly by most, and not at all by some) by the parliamentary Conservative party as part of the post-war consensus. Thatcher hated that. As you go on to acknowledge. But this means they are indeed against change. Being instinctively against gay marriage, the right to strike and anything muslimy isn't being 'concerned about change'; it is about taking us back to the 1930s, when workers knew their place.

It is ironic that this is supported by many low income people who seem content to know their place, their station - the old and pathetic unctuous attitude of an element of the working class that feel slightly superior to the lowest of the low.

Nope. Disagree. In saying that Thatcher changed back, you're operating on the basis that there was a beginning -- whatever that is 'natural' or 'normal' -- that she was trying to return us to after all that dreadful 'social engineering' of the postwar years.
Where you are on to something is that Thatcher was a neoliberal (or, more accurately, a strange hybrid of neoliberalism and social/cultural conservatism). The word neoliberal implies a new form of liberalism, whereas it's intended aim was to return liberalism to its origins, to 'classical liberalism', after all that mid-century 'social liberalism' had veered liberalism off course.

 

[Greg Bobkin]

A fantastic writer and mind wrote about it.

Woke Racism: How a New Religion Has Betrayed Black America

In his new book, John McWhorter argues that a neoracism, disguised as antiracism, is hurting Black communities in this country. According to McWhorter, the problem is that a well-meaning but pernicious form of antiracism has become, not a progressive ideology, but a religion. In Woke Racism...

news.columbia.edu

Why not just type some names, instead of a link to a video who no-one will want – or bother – to watch or an article that no-one asked for?

 

[The Clamp]

Why not just type some names, instead of a link to a video who no-one will want – or bother – to watch or an article that no-one asked for?

Because he’s talking bollocks.

 

[Oh_aye]

Woke is a huge danger to normal everyday life. Its the thing that gets you sacked after years and years being respected as someone well known in your profession because you said one small thing that some nutter did not like. Its the thing that means your misses might get raped by the geezer claiming he's a bird and sees her in the female changing rooms. Its the reason kids know everything about wanking etc when they are 5 because the sex mad woke brigade shove it down their throats at school.And I could go on and on.

You can have a lot of fun removing the swearing from this and then reading it in the voice of Alan Partridge

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Ah, I was really looking for and answer to my question.

But I wasn’t expecting one. So I’m not too disappointed.

Well if you want the social media ones one like Evergreen State College where they told white people to stay off campus for the day.

Or the Rutgers Prof. who said we need to get rid of white people.


That kind of stuff?

 

[The Clamp]

Well if you want the social media ones one like Evergreen State College where they told white people to stay off campus for the day.

Or the Rutgers Prof. who said we need to get rid of white people.


That kind of stuff?

Just a list of the “lots of racists” in the “woke mob”

Just an answer to the question I asked really. It was quite a simple question. It seemed like you knew the names off the top of your head but I see you are having to furiously retrospectively Google things to back up your argument.

It’s fine, don’t worry about it. In many ways you have already answered my question.

 

[hart's shirt]

 

[jcdenton08]

Indeed but who is saying only Mediterranean people can act in Anthony and Cleopatra?

The examples you've given are from a very small minority who want to make their voices heard, not from society as a whole.

As for our resident Australian troll, of course, people of colour can be racist. Indian people look down on Africans for instance.

It is nothing to do with race or colour. It is about live and let live.
What is wrong with that?
Only those who want to sow division are up in arms about it, trying to find things to criticise, almost every day. Maybe that's what validates them?

Ah yes but you could say the same about white nationalists - racism is racism and can’t be condoned.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Nope. Disagree. In saying that Thatcher changed back, you're operating on the basis that there was a beginning -- whatever that is 'natural' or 'normal' -- that she was trying to return us to after all that dreadful 'social engineering' of the postwar years.
Where you are on to something is that Thatcher was a neoliberal (or, more accurately, a strange hybrid of neoliberalism and social/cultural conservatism). The word neoliberal implies a new form of liberalism, whereas it's intended aim was to return liberalism to its origins, to 'classical liberalism', after all that mid-century 'social liberalism' had veered liberalism off course.

I think we violently agree. By and large.

I seem to recall that mainstream parliamentary tories found Thatcher a bit weird (neoliberal, as you say, and female) but left her to crack on as it seemed so....exciting and....popular (outside of trade union circles, which were ever-decreasing).

But my point was that whereas Thatcher can be argued to have created genuine (direction-forward) change, this is not the usual hallmark of the conservative mindset, which is....conservative (against change). Perhaps this was why Thacher was ruthlessly dispatched when it looked like she might lose the GE - to that oaf Kinnock of all people.

Now, something that may have changed the traditional landscape and the way we view it is this: To beat Labour, 'call me Dave' channeled Tony Blair. At the same time the tories started to welcome ethnic minorities as members and parliamentary candidates. They have an obvious socially liberal element now, and I genuinely believe that many of them truly support socialist institutions such as the NHS, the fire service and even (as will unfold) the emerging modern, accountable and tax-payer funded (and hence socialist) police force. That's . . . .weird.

Ironically I am unsure that the tories quite realize where they are now. They have always been a morphing party of winners, but I am at a loss to understand what they stand for now. Traditional values (such as gay marriage)? Nope. Free enterprise (such as the spaffing during Covid - my barber was handed £10K, for example)? Nope. Free trade with Europe (after Brexit? Clearly not.) Bashing the unions (and giving in to the nurses, and eventually the doctors)? Nope.

To be fair, Labour ditched socialism when Blair ditched clause 4 and embraced PPF. Times change and those who don't change with the times will be out-evolved by those who are nimbler and fleeter of foot.

Maybe all this is good, and maybe now we can decide who to vote for based on issues rather than doctrine. I suspect a lot of the public's cynicism is that both parties are today trying to sell their policies as if they resonate with some sort of strong central set of principles: socialism and conservatism. At that point I suspect we can agree that this is where reality and hubris collide.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Ah yes but you could say the same about white nationalists - racism is racism and can’t be condoned.

Where did I give the impression I condoned it?

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Just a list of the “lots of racists” in the “woke mob”

Just an answer to the question I asked really. It was quite a simple question. It seemed like you knew the names off the top of your head but I see you are having to furiously retrospectively Google things to back up your argument.

It’s fine, don’t worry about it. In many ways you have already answered my question.

The fact a distinguished black author wrote about it doesn't set off the light bulb that it's an actual thing?

How about a Jewish one? Or are the Liberal academics to be ignored now?

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