The Lib Dem's immigration amnesty

[bhaexpress]

Personally I would revoke all the working Visas of Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans and so on until their countries have a fully reciprical arrangement with the UK. Did you know that these same people get the right to vote here ?

 

[bhaexpress]

Surely the point of this policy is damage limitation? Personally I'm not convinced that all 600,000 illegals will get hold of documents like this. Some (15,000) may do, but all 600,000? - I don't think so.

As for the message it sends to future illegal immigrants. It really shouldn't matter IF WE TIGHTEN OUR BORDERS, and that is why we're in this sorry mess.

The ten year limit will very much reduce the numbers of those who can claim amnesty. Frankly if they've managed to make a living here for that long then they're doing better than many who legally live here.

 

[Pavilionaire]

The Lib Dems are right to address the issue directly. If you allow hundreds of thousands of people to operate in the black economy it will simply suck in more people as cuts bite and taxes inevitably rise.

Nobody's acknowledged there's a problem with the black economy but one way of cutting the deficit is to start getting some tax from those who are presently OUTSIDE the system.

Unfortunately, many non-taxpayers are also voters and the 2 Big Parties don't want to frighten these people off from voting for them.

 

[simmo]

Surely the point of this policy is damage limitation? Personally I'm not convinced that all 600,000 illegals will get hold of documents like this. Some (15,000) may do, but all 600,000? - I don't think so.

As for the message it sends to future illegal immigrants. It really shouldn't matter IF WE TIGHTEN OUR BORDERS, and that is why we're in this sorry mess.

I am not sure if you are refering to the master forger but don't forget that this is the work of just one man, just one man! Think how many other potential master forgers there would be if illegals needed to provide some spurios paperwork to prove that they had been in the UK for 10 years. It is naive to presume that there would not be such forgers that would provide such false documentation, money would talk.

They did something wrong they are here illegally, there is no amnesty in criminal cases for 10 years. Why do these people deserve an amnesty (and I think the reward and privelidge of being a UK citizen) for doing something illegal and downright wrong.

 

[Simster]

I agree with the sentiment simmo, and see this as a damage limitation exercise. So for me, I guess the real argument against this proposal, is "would it make the situation worse?"

For me, I don't think it would. I think there need to be amendments to the proposal as I suggested in an earlier post, but I think it could work. Firstly, we need to properly tighten our borders to ensure illegal immigration is clamped down on properly. This is something that the British people feel very strongly about, and it is time the politicians listened and actually pumped some money into the resources to deal with it, or we play into the hands of extremists.

Obviously, you and I agree on that much. However, how is this to be paid for? Money is tight, and personally I don't want public services cut any more than necessary. I suggest that this is paid for out of the taxes of those illegal immigrants that have been earning money here for years but not paid tax. It's a bitter pill to swallow for some, it's not right, but sometimes we have to swallow our principles and look at the bigger picture IMO.

 

[simmo]

I agree with the sentiment simmo, and see this as a damage limitation exercise. So for me, I guess the real argument against this proposal, is "would it make the situation worse?"

For me, I don't think it would. I think there need to be amendments to the proposal as I suggested in an earlier post, but I think it could work. Firstly, we need to properly tighten our borders to ensure illegal immigration is clamped down on properly. This is something that the British people feel very strongly about, and it is time the politicians listened and actually pumped some money into the resources to deal with it, or we play into the hands of extremists.

Obviously, you and I agree on that much. However, how is this to be paid for? Money is tight, and personally I don't want public services cut any more than necessary. I suggest that this is paid for out of the taxes of those illegal immigrants that have been earning money here for years but not paid tax. It's a bitter pill to swallow for some, it's not right, but sometimes we have to swallow our principles and look at the bigger picture IMO.

The big question I ask myself concerning illegal migration is this? Why do people risk it all and sometimes (there lives) to get into the UK?

I think to myself if they were geniune asylum seekers fleeing terror from their own country surely they would seek refuge in the nearest safe country that borders there own and not travel through many countries to get to an island in the NW corner of Europe

I think the true answer why they come here is this. I think they think the UK is a soft touch. I think that they think that once they get in to the UK it will be all honey and roses. Whether or not that is true or not now I am not so sure, but that is what I think they think and why they come here.

To reduce illegal immigration any new government must make it crystal clear that it is not honey and roses. I believe they should think things like this. We will try and find you and deport you and we will not give up if you have been here 50 years and you are a great grandfather we will still sling you out, you will get zero benefits, you will not be allowed to have a job, you will get no roof over your head, we will give you no food, nor water. You can rest assured that some people will have members of their family/friends maybe here already and if they tell any potential further illegal immigrants no really it isn't worth it, it is utter shite, it will discourage others from coming over.

 

[Simster]

I think people come here because its the home of the commonwealth, and we're a tolerant society. Far more so than, say, France.

More specifically, I don't think they come here to live on benefits, although the attraction of a proper welfare state cannot be underestimated. But that's another thing isn't it? Why have neither Labour (13 years) nor the Tories (16 years) been able to do ANYTHING about the mess that is our benefit system over the past three decades? I don't trust either of them to sort it out properly.

 

[withdeanwombat]

Sorry.Not a fan.Don't think it's been thought through.

 

[withdeanwombat]

Personally I would revoke all the working Visas of Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans and so on until their countries have a fully reciprical arrangement with the UK. Did you know that these same people get the right to vote here ?

When I lived in Australia,not only did I have the right to vote,but also the right to be fined if I didn't.

 

[Gwylan]

I think people come here because its the home of the commonwealth, and we're a tolerant society. Far more so than, say, France.

That will be the France that has the highest Muslim population in the western world - about 10% of the population.

 

[simmo]

I think people come here because its the home of the commonwealth, and we're a tolerant society. Far more so than, say, France.

More specifically, I don't think they come here to live on benefits, although the attraction of a proper welfare state cannot be underestimated. But that's another thing isn't it? Why have neither Labour (13 years) nor the Tories (16 years) been able to do ANYTHING about the mess that is our benefit system over the past three decades? I don't trust either of them to sort it out properly.

There are many people that come here that are not from the Commonwealth, Kosovo, Iraq, Somalia etc etc to name but a few. A person also earlier on mentioned two Phillipino's, Phillipines isn't in the Commonwealth.

Are you talking government policy or indviduals attitude to foreigners when you say we are a more tolerant society? If it is individuals then that is good for us as individuals, because I think we are too, but government policy can be a different matter and if you have pretty harsh rules as I listed above it can make any potential illegals not worth risking their life to get here not worthwhile.

The welfare system has been going on for the last 60 years and in my opinion the Lib Dems whom I think are quite a bit to the left of Labour would make it far easier to obtain benefits and would pump more money into the welfare state just because of their political leanings/beliefs.

 

[Simster]

That will be the France that has the highest Muslim population in the western world - about 10% of the population.

Yep, the very same France where 13% of the population votes National Front.

 

[drew]

But neither of those things are the fault of Cameron or Brown it is the fault of the body whom it is to find illegals (my guess would be HMRC, but I might be wrong). I suppose you could possibly blame Brown for underfunding HMRC (or the relevant body) but not Cameron.

Ah so it's Brown's fault because the Tories never underfunded the border controls or come to that, never removed exit controls!!!!!!

 

[simmo]

Ah so it's Brown's fault because the Tories never underfunded the border controls or come to that, never removed exit controls!!!!!!

You have found one little thing to comment on and that is all you can say.

Eventhough you have no answers on the basic question of how do you prove/disprove someone has/has not been here illegally for 10 years or not.

Yes well it is Brown's fault because he is/was the Chancellor/PM of the governing party for the last 13 years, he can tighten up add/remove relax whatever borders he wants to, that is why you are in power, you make decisions and implement laws via parliament. The buck stops with you and not the opposition, because the opposition can do sweet FA.

If Cameron would have been in charge it would have been his fault but he's not him and his party have been out of power for 13 years, Brown's hasn't.

 

[Gwylan]

Yep, the very same France where 13% of the population votes National Front.

Well, yes, and people still go there even though, as you say, it's a less tolerant country.

I think people will go where they speak a language: if your second language is English, you'll go to the UK or US. If your second language is French, you'll go to France. I'm sure that that was more bearing as to whether people are slightly more tolerant or not.

 

[pork pie]

Are you a fan or not?

On balance, I think I am. Afterall, we simply don't know how many illegal immigrants are in the country, so I'd rather have them paying tax right now, thereby denting the profits of criminals.


Note - this is not a thread on how future illegal immigration should be curbed, but more about what to do with the existing problem.

Definiely not! It is a stupid idea. We should start kicking a few doors in and deport the bastards!

 

[bhaexpress]

When I lived in Australia,not only did I have the right to vote,but also the right to be fined if I didn't.

Really ? My mistake or that of the Aussies working here. However we do not have the same arrangement for working visas do we ?

 

[Gritt23]

It's a completely hairbrained idea. As has already been mentioned, the "prove you've been here for 10 years" is just ludicrous. The "proof" would be so flimsy, because they have gone out of their way to be under the radar and therefore no proof exists.

So, presumably whatever flimsy evidence they accept from someone who really has been here for 10 years would be fairly easily produced by the illegal who showed up yesterday.

Carnage. We are talking IMMIGRATION not bloody late library books, and amnesty is just asking for a whole load more trouble. Get to UK and you have a shot at convincing them that you can stay under the amnesty.

 

[bhaexpress]

It's a completely hairbrained idea. As has already been mentioned, the "prove you've been here for 10 years" is just ludicrous. The "proof" would be so flimsy, because they have gone out of their way to be under the radar and therefore no proof exists.

So, presumably whatever flimsy evidence they accept from someone who really has been here for 10 years would be fairly easily produced by the illegal who showed up yesterday.

Carnage. We are talking IMMIGRATION not bloody late library books, and amnesty is just asking for a whole load more trouble. Get to UK and you have a shot at convincing them that you can stay under the amnesty.

Think about it though, if you claim imunity but cannot prove it then it's Deportation City. Trouble is many workers (those in the sex trade for instance) are involved with law breaking so they're hardly likely to apply.

 

[Les Biehn]

I would say it is a good idea. Not sure how you go about doing it but I imagine most people over here illegally get a shite wage, no benefits and don't pay tax. If they are legal they will get a better wage (hopefully), benefits of a welfare state and will be paying tax.