The Lib Dem's immigration amnesty

[Badger]

The way I see it we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. With an amnesty at least we'll get a few of the illegals paying tax but we could end up with a lot of dodgy people we really don't want in the country filling places that could be taken by decent immigrants who've come here for the right reasons. However if we don't do it we still won't have any idea as to how many illegals are in the country and they will stay undercover and continue to break the law.

The trouble is it's impossible to turn back the clock.

 

[Shanker45]

That's not a policy - that's common sense. They'll all do that, it's just that the LibDems want a clean slate before implementing it.

Maybe the LibDems should simply tweak this amnesty idea. An amnesty to all illegals, 2 months to either register and this does NOT extend to family, or leave the country. If after the two months, you are still here and have not registered, you will be deported immediately when caught with no chance of getting back in.

At least that would get *some* of the illegals paying tax...

Not a bad idea to be honest. For me the Lib Dems are trying a fresh approach to dealing with the problem where the other two main parties aren't.

The Tories "let's set a cap" and do nothing about the existing illegal immigrants isn't going to work.


Labour are too slow to tighten up on the policy and seem to pretend that there is less illegal immigrants here now then say 13 years ago.

 

[drew]

Well I presume their answer would be if we found illegal immigrants they are to be deported out of the UK because they are here illegally. What is wrong with that? How is that not the best solution?

So you are now saying that CMD and GB are going to actively look for all these 600k illegals!! First I've heard of it. They are only found when they pop up on the radar, either through being caught committing crime or perhaps when they are badly hurt and taken to a&e! The odd raid on sweat shops etc isn't going to dent the 600k.

Well I don't think they even have to bother to say that. If someone is found to be here illegally then they need to be deported. Why are you also rewarding with UK citizenship, people whom have done something illegal (i.e entering the UK without the relevant papers to stay) as well?

I don't disagree about people who are found here and are illegal. But the point is there is much looking going on and we aren't going to find 600k of them!!!

 

[The Spanish]

why not simply extend it to all criminals and hey presto money back in the coffers.

how about having 10 years of not having people take the absolute piss in the first instance.

I wish I had a business making stable door locks I would be a millionaire.

 

[simmo]

Not a bad idea to be honest. For me the Lib Dems are trying a fresh approach to dealing with the problem where the other two main parties aren't.

The Tories "let's set a cap" and do nothing about the existing illegal immigrants isn't going to work.


Labour are too slow to tighten up on the policy and seem to pretend that there is less illegal immigrants here now then say 13 years ago.

The Tories policy is not to set a cap on "illegal immigration" it is to set a cap on legal immigration.

Legal immigration and illegal immigration are two completely seperate things.

The Lab and Con policy on "illegal immigration" is if you are an illegal and you are found out you are deported.

The Lib Dem policy is if you are here 10 years as an illegal you are granted amnesty and you can stay.

But I ask any proponent of the Lib Dem policy this question.

If you are a dealing with someone whom claims to be here as an illegal for 10 years how do you prove that they have been here for less and not that they may have just got of the back of a lorry at Dover you can't...because you have no paperwork, no passport stamp, because illegals have to live in the shadows of society you have not got anything to disprove it.

You can bet your bottom dollar that if this proposal became law every illegal (even if they have been here 1 day and it would also encourage other illegals from outside the UK to try and get in) and they would say in their interview with whatever board, "I have been here 10 years I am entitled to stay I am now a UK citizen" and you have squat to disprove them otherwise.

 

[The Spanish]

The Tories policy is not to set a cap on "illegal immigration" it is to set a cap on legal immigration.

Legal immigration and illegal immigration are two completely seperate things.

The Lab and Con policy on "illegal immigration" is if you are an illegal and you are found out you are deported.

The Lib Dem policy is if you are here 10 years as an illegal you are granted amnesty and you can stay.

But I ask any proponent of the Lib Dem policy this question.

If you are a dealing with someone whom claims to be here as an illegal for 10 years how do you prove that they have been here for less and not that they may have just got of the back of a lorry at Dover you can't...because you have no paperwork, no passport stamp, because illegals have to live in the shadows of society you have not got anything to disprove it.

You can bet your bottom dollar that if this proposal became law every illegal (even if they have been here 1 day and it would also encourage other illegals from outside the UK to try and get in) and they would say in their interview with whatever board, "I have been here 10 years I am entitled to stay I am now a UK citizen" and you have squat to disprove them otherwise.

one of the amnesty fears is exactly that, a mad rush prior to it. Suicidal. Solving entirely avoidable situations by throwing your hands up and dressing it up as being of economic benefit is not the sort of governance this country needs right now.

 

[simmo]

So you are now saying that CMD and GB are going to actively look for all these 600k illegals!! First I've heard of it. They are only found when they pop up on the radar, either through being caught committing crime or perhaps when they are badly hurt and taken to a&e! The odd raid on sweat shops etc isn't going to dent the 600k.



I don't disagree about people who are found here and are illegal. But the point is there is much looking going on and we aren't going to find 600k of them!!!

But neither of those things are the fault of Cameron or Brown it is the fault of the body whom it is to find illegals (my guess would be HMRC, but I might be wrong). I suppose you could possibly blame Brown for underfunding HMRC (or the relevant body) but not Cameron.

 

[Simster]

I must admit, when I started this thread I didn't realise there was a ten year limit. I thought it applied to all illegals,

Having said that, surely these people must find a way to prove their own length of stay if they are going to take advantage of this amnesty. I don't see why the burden of proof would need to be on the state.

And if they can do so, then lets have them paying taxes - ideally on a special higher rate of taxation for 2 or 3 years to cover the back taxes they should have paid.

 

[fleet]

If you give an amnesty to people whom have been here 10 years ILLEGALLY and therefore are under the radar of everything how do they/you anyone prove they have been here/or have not been here for more than 10 years.

For example, how does it stop someone trying to get in illegally this very minute and saying when they go for the LIb Dems amnesty, I have been in the UK 10 years (you have nothing to prove/disprove this either way because they are here illegally i.e they have no passport stamp no ferry ticket etc).

Good point - it is as daft as immigration only to certain cities that the Lib Dems favour - passport checks at Watford Gap services or something similar I guess

 

[simmo]

one of the amnesty fears is exactly that, a mad rush prior to it. Suicidal. Solving entirely avoidable situations by throwing your hands up and dressing it up as being of economic benefit is not the sort of governance this country needs right now.

It would also encourage more and more illegals after to come into the country after because if any illegal says I have been living in the UK for ten years illegally you have nothing to disprove it.

Clegg spoke last night about quality of English or something like that...but how is that a test there are people in the Asian community for e.g whom can barely speak a word of English whom have a British passport, no problem they are British citizens.....yet there may be people that have just arrived illegally this very morning in the back of a lorry at Dover whose English may be very good because they have learnt English at school as a second language...how can Clegg's criteria be a test?

 

[Gwylan]

Well I presume their answer would be if we found illegal immigrants they are to be deported out of the UK because they are here illegally. What is wrong with that? How is that not the best solution?

Cost of deporting an illegal immigrant is about £10,000. If there are, say, 600,000 illegals here (and no-one knows) then the cost of deporting them all is £6 billion (and that's without adding in the cost of looking for them).

At a time when we know there needs to be a big cut in government expenditure, should we be adding to the amount we spend?

I think the amnesty is a good idea. It means more income, not less. And it's not just a Liberal Democrat idea. Boris Johnson has also called for an amnesty on them and last time I looked, he was a Tory.

 

[Shanker45]

The Tories policy is not to set a cap on "illegal immigration" it is to set a cap on legal immigration.

Legal immigration and illegal immigration are two completely seperate things.

The Lab and Con policy on "illegal immigration" is if you are an illegal and you are found out you are deported.

The Lib Dem policy is if you are here 10 years as an illegal you are granted amnesty and you can stay.

But I ask any proponent of the Lib Dem policy this question.

If you are a dealing with someone whom claims to be here as an illegal for 10 years how do you prove that they have been here for less and not that they may have just got of the back of a lorry at Dover you can't...because you have no paperwork, no passport stamp, because illegals have to live in the shadows of society you have not got anything to disprove it.

You can bet your bottom dollar that if this proposal became law every illegal (even if they have been here 1 day and it would also encourage other illegals from outside the UK to try and get in) and they would say in their interview with whatever board, "I have been here 10 years I am entitled to stay I am now a UK citizen" and you have squat to disprove them otherwise.

Apologies, I meant to add the Tories Cap was on legal imigrants - which I would like to know how this will work?

I understand that Labour and the Tories will deport illegal immigrants if they find you but what are they proposing to do about finding them?

The LIb Dem policy says that those coming forward in an amnesty will then have to serve a two year probationary period before being granted citizenship

 

[simmo]

I must admit, when I started this thread I didn't realise there was a ten year limit. I thought it applied to all illegals,

Having said that, surely these people must find a way to prove their own length of stay if they are going to take advantage of this amnesty. I don't see why the burden of proof would need to be on the state.

And if they can do so, then lets have them paying taxes - ideally on a special higher rate of taxation for 2 or 3 years to cover the back taxes they should have paid.

But how do you prove/or disprove it that either way? If you are here living in the shadows of society, illegally (maybe even under a false name with false identity papers etc.)

 

[User removed 4]

Cost of deporting an illegal immigrant is about £10,000. If there are, say, 600,000 illegals here (and no-one knows) then the cost of deporting them all is £6 billion (and that's without adding in the cost of looking for them).

At a time when we know there needs to be a big cut in government expenditure, should we be adding to the amount we spend?

I'm quite sure the process could be made cheaper.

 

[Simster]

But how do you prove/or disprove it that either way? If you are here living in the shadows of society, illegally (maybe even under a false name with false identity papers etc.)

Circumstantial photos, proof of using false identity papers, carefully vetted witnesses, or a combination.

I don't care really - it shouldn't be the state's job to prove otherwise, it should be for the individual to prove their claim.

 

[simmo]

Apologies, I meant to add the Tories Cap was on legal imigrants - which I would like to know how this will work?

I understand that Labour and the Tories will deport illegal immigrants if they find you but what are they proposing to do about finding them?

The LIb Dem policy says that those coming forward in an amnesty will then have to serve a two year probationary period before being granted citizenship

Like I said to someone else it is the job of the HMRC (I believe) to find them. If they have lack of funding to do that task then the fault lies at Brown's door for underfunding them for the last 13 years.

You can't give up, what sort of a signal does that send out to other illegals whom are thinking about trying to get into the UK.

 

[simmo]

Circumstantial photos, proof of using false identity papers, carefully vetted witnesses, or a combination.

I don't care really - it shouldn't be the state's job to prove otherwise, it should be for the individual to prove their claim.

What and there would be no chance of these being faked....righto, did you see the thing in the paper the other day about some Asian chap whom has been sent to jail twice now for forging thousands of British passports. I will try and find the link to it if you want.

 

[simmo]

What and there would be no chance of these being faked....righto, did you see the thing in the paper the other day about some Asian chap whom has been sent to jail twice now for forging thousands of British passports. I will try and find the link to it if you want.

Here he is.

Master forger helped 15,000 people stay illegally in Britain - Manchester Evening News

 

[Stat Brother]

I fall into the 'what the hell, nothing else has worked' category, which I'm finding happening quite often, in this campaign. I guess that's a result of 'the left' moving considerably 'right' over the last 10 years.

The people in question have lived here for 10+ years, if they've 'got away with it' for that long, they will be here for a further 10+ years away.
I don't see us deporting sways of illegal pensioners in x years time having lived here for 20+ years, when the burden on the welfare state, is at it's greatest.

Draw a line in the sand, and concentrate efforts on the validity of new arrivals.

 

[Simster]

Surely the point of this policy is damage limitation? Personally I'm not convinced that all 600,000 illegals will get hold of documents like this. Some (15,000) may do, but all 600,000? - I don't think so.

As for the message it sends to future illegal immigrants. It really shouldn't matter IF WE TIGHTEN OUR BORDERS, and that is why we're in this sorry mess.