[Politics] The Labour Government

[Weststander]

I agree to a point but I cannot help feeling that some sections of society, the media, and NSC, have been waiting to pounce on something and if it was not this then it would be something else. This is the nature of the media in the UK which is fuelling this with trite three word slogans to appeal to a certain demographic. I hope in 5 years time people judge him on his policies and not a free pair of glasses.

As for the silver lining. I think he could have put Free Gear Keir to bed by annoucning a revision of the winter fuel allowance. I agree it needs to be means-tested but in a different way.

That’s another, simply politics.

I said exactly the same when the Pandemic/Lockdowns came. NSC’ers and media appeared left, right and centre, piling on in attempted gotcha moments. On how Corbyn would’ve done things far better. Why can’t we avoid CV19 deaths like the French, Belgians and Spanish?

 

[chip]

Is that an official medical source? If so, do you have a reference for that please?

Also, no one can look into the future and say “will”, the most that can be said is ‘likely’ or ‘probably’. Anything else is scaremongering and hyperbolic language.

Cold temperatures are known to cause significant increase in mortality, there is a causal link that is well understood. You don't need an BMBS to know this. While I accept the philosophical premise that we cannot predict the future with certainty, I think @jcdenton is justified to assert that removing WFA will cause deaths. The alternative is to count them afterwards, that would be much better wouldn't it? I also think AgeUK are quite a reliable source, they fund quite a bit of research and some of that is how to keep older people with comorbities alive.

 

[Brian Fantana]

I was very much on the fence about how KS would be as a PM. I thought at least he'd be sensible and a safe pair of hands, and that we'd see political rather than personal issues making the news.

As it is, I don't see a huge difference yet with the previous government. There's still u-turns, there's still examples of cronyism and there's still horribly-misjudged policies. Maybe that's just politics in this country, but it certainly isn't the bright new dawn that Labour seemed to ride into power with.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Shameful

Was that before or after your post about the breaking story of Harold Wilson receiving a Gannex rain coat?

Before.

 

[nicko31]

4,950 excess winter deaths caused by cold homes last winter

Excess winter deaths have increased as records show that when winter temperatures drop below 4 degrees, deaths caused by cold homes increase.

www.endfuelpoverty.org.uk

These are the statistics for the last few years including this winter past, which included the WFA.

In April 2022 there was a 54% increase in the domestic energy price cap, leading to several thousand further deaths year on year.

On October 1st this year, the price cap raises again a further 10%, after a minor drop in price in the last 12 months. On average, households are paying over 29% more than two years ago and now with the poorest and most vulnerable without WFA offsetting some of the difference.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9714/

The year after WFA was introduced, confirmed deaths from cold homes have fallen in line with mean winter temperatures. Here are the government statistics showing a correlation between colder temperatures and numbers of deaths from cold homes.

View attachment 189116

Good job Cameron scrapped to all the green crap in 2015, a decade of missed opportunity to insulate the most leaky housing stock in Northern Europe

 

[jcdenton08]

Good job Cameron scrapped to all the green crap in 2015, a decade of missed opportunity to insulate the most leaky housing stock in Northern Europe

The Tories were horrible in government. But this one isn’t about the Tories. Even using the £22bn black hole as reasoning for the WFA cut, the estimated £1.7bn saving isn’t going to touch the sides. It’s a very poor policy.

 

[Curious Orange]

Let's re-visit that, briefly, because it's interesting given what business secretary Jonathan Reynolds said yesterday.

The Guardian reports that, when pressed on Sue Gray's salary, Reynolds said:

"I think it’s important people understand that the pay bands for any official, any adviser, are not set by politicians. There’s an official process that does that. I don’t, for instance, get to set the pay for my own advisers who work directly for me. So, there’s a process, we don’t have political input into that.​

​

There’s a process that sets these things. It is widely recognised. It’s long-standing. It hasn’t changed and that is how pay bands are set for any adviser."​

​

So, any criticism of Keir Starmer for Sue Gray's salary is mis-directed.

But, then, errrm.....



If there's a long-standing, unchanged, non-political process for adviser pay, why was the now Prime Minister seeking to make political capital out of Cummings' salary?

Did he simply not know how adviser pay worked? That seems highly unlikely doesn't it?

Or was he seeking to score cheap political points based on something he knew not to be true? Also unlikely for a man of such high integrity.

What a conundrum!

He probably didn't check Wikipedia before posting. I didn't know that Special Advisors were a Labour invention (over a decade before I was born).

Special adviser (United Kingdom) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Tiger Barb]

Regardless of political party, the question is what standards do we expect from the political elite?
Gifts are frowned upon in the private sector due to the potential for conflict of interest, MPs should not accept gifts full stop!
Of course any Prime Minister will come under close scrutiny (rightly so), given the profile and responsibility that they hold. Any decent leader leads by example, so when times are tough people look to see a bit of empathy. Something successive Governments seem to have struggled with …

 

[Zeberdi]

Cold temperatures are known to cause significant increase in mortality, there is a causal link that is well understood. You don't need an BMBS to know this. While I accept the philosophical premise that we cannot predict the future with certainty, I think @jcdenton is justified to assert that removing WFA will cause deaths. The alternative is to count them afterwards, that would be much better wouldn't it? I also think AgeUK are quite a reliable source, they fund quite a bit of research and some of that is how to keep older people with comorbities alive.

I don’t disagree - You’ve quoted me out of context though.

I said that cold causes high blood pressure, strokes and worsens flu and Covid symptoms - and as I said, there are excess deaths every winter (ie cold weather) in the elderly because of that.

However - The only point I was questioning was the proposition that there will be a thousand deaths this year directly because people are not using their heating specifically because of the WFA withdrawal.

Without knowing how many people will not use their heating because of the withdrawal of the WFA nor how many excess deaths this winter will be caused by Covid or Flu related illnesses or other morbidities, how can one forecast with certainty or quantify that the policy WILL result in this number of deaths as a direct cause ?

I am not saying it won’t have an impact but it seems a little hyperbolic to start accusing Starmer of directly killing 1000s of pensioners before the facts.

For all you know, we could have an unusually mild winter!

As I have said, I don’t support the withdrawal but do want to be clear of the facts - Its just a question

 

[Ding Dong !]

I was very much on the fence about how KS would be as a PM. I thought at least he'd be sensible and a safe pair of hands, and that we'd see political rather than personal issues making the news.

As it is, I don't see a huge difference yet with the previous government. There's still u-turns, there's still examples of cronyism and there's still horribly-misjudged policies. Maybe that's just politics in this country, but it certainly isn't the bright new dawn that Labour seemed to ride into power with.

Guessing the majority of all the left wing voters thought the same !!! You know the old saying, "If it' sounds too good to be true...........

 

[fly high]

My wife and kids get the benefit of my work private medical cover. Again, it's common for families to benefit from someone's job to an extent.

My wife and kids get the benefit of my work private medical cover. Again, it's common for families to benefit from someone's job to an extent.

If your employer pays for free medical cover it is not completely free as you will pay tax on it, I certainly did.

 

[Super Steve Earle]

Please stop accusing me of hijacking your thread etc. I posted half a dozen posts on your original thread - with HT mostly about the meals he was posting. If you have an issue with the thread being then merged and the title changed, or your thread ending up being ‘hijacked’ with pro-labour posts or too serious a political debate when people’s posts were transported over in the merge, please take it up with the mods. I have no control over that. NSC members cannot change the title of other people’s threads or merge threads - you are simply wrong to think it is up to members how moderators moderate the forum.

However, just to be clear, I certainly did not support everything the Government proposed in the Kings Speech or thereafter in my original thread. I was very critical on several of the policies, including the housebuilding/planning regulations being changed to the detriment of the environment and the greenlighting of wind farm installations across East Anglia and Suffolk.

As far as the discussion goes, this is the only thread going so I will just say this:

I have never been fully supportive of any policy by any political party and latterly, I certainly haven’t expressed any support for the blanket withdrawal of pension fuel payments debacle (I even recommended several times an alternative and much more equitable approach). Nor have I been particularly supportive of the freebies MPs receive by virtue of their positions. The latter is problematic for me because freebies can buy political influence - which is why there are strict rules for declaring interests. This applies just as much to Councillors in local government too. @Guinness Boy mentioned the freebies you get in corporate industry (in my own experience, these have been tack mostly other than a few comp tickets for various things !) but these do not buy political influence in the way donations to political parties and freebies to politicians do - that is the way politics has always worked and it is naive to think otherwise.

I have never warmed to Starmer much personally, I always thought he was a bit of a smarmy git tbh although I think he handled the riots well. However, I have been a Labour Party supporter over the years and helped with the last election to unseat Truss. Therefore, I still think that asylum seekers/control of irregular immigration, public services and the NHS, and our relationship with Europe (and the economy eventually) will fare better under this Government than the last one - despite not agreeing to everything they are doing - choice of who we support is always a compromise.

I think you may be being a little oversensitive to my comment back at HT. He was being an arse doubling down on his entirely false opinion about my motives for posting the thread, despite my assertions to the contrary. The comment was entirely aimed at him.
I didn't reference you and I know you didn't change it. If I could be bothered to scour 100 odd pages to find it, I was sure you suggested merging your thread with mine and I thought a mod reacted by doing so under a different title. In the context of NSC call and responses, I thought it was going well. Until it was changed. I remain disappointed at that as I thought the idea for the thread had merit.

If I'm wrong for misrecalling that it was your suggestion, then I am man enough to apologise. Unlike HT who is and isn't.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

If your employer pays for free medical cover it is not completely free as you will pay tax on it, I certainly did.

Wouldnt happen in Germany

We can claim private health insurance, and life insurance for that matter, against our personal tax bill. I claim both.

 

[dsr-burnley]

My wife and kids get the benefit of my work private medical cover. Again, it's common for families to benefit from someone's job to an extent.

Your private medical cover is paid for by your employer, and the reason he pays it is that it's part of your remuneration. In exchange, your employer gets the benefit of your labour.

It's a different matter when it's a private individual doing the paying. If someone not related to your work was giving your wife thousands of pounds of goodies and you in exchange game that person work-related benefits such as access to your office, your employer would be asking some very searching questions.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Your private medical cover is paid for by your employer, and the reason he pays it is that it's part of your remuneration. In exchange, your employer gets the benefit of your labour.

It's a different matter when it's a private individual doing the paying. If someone not related to your work was giving your wife thousands of pounds of goodies and you in exchange game that person work-related benefits such as access to your office, your employer would be asking some very searching questions.

Quite rightly, but what is being discussed is the even handedness of the press.
Where were the searching questions previously on Lord Hester, Lord Bamford, Shell, and Infosys (just in the last 4 years)

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

If I'm wrong for misrecalling that it was your suggestion, then I am man enough to apologise. Unlike HT who is and isn't.

what was it about 'digging' you said yesterday?

Two things

1) For the record I have appologised for a number of misjudged posts on here. I’m self-aware enough to know when I have overstepped the mark. Regarding your post, I stated an opinion about the merits of your thread, which I still believe, and which you do not agree with. What on earth is the big deal that a day later you're still going on about it? Stop being so precious. Had I been rude or offensive then fair enough..but I wasn’t. There is no need for anyone to apologize.
2) I eat liver, I am man enough.

 

[fly high]

Wouldnt happen in Germany

We can claim private health insurance, and life insurance for that matter, against our personal tax bill. I claim both.

Plenty hate private health care over here. Life cover used to be encouraged with tax incentive. Had a savings scheme which included life insurance where state paid 20% of my premium. Stopped that for new products years ago & eventually stopped it for existing, still helped me to buy a nice new car when I retired, thank you HMG.

 

[Bry Nylon]

Quite rightly, but what is being discussed is the even handedness of the press.
Where were the searching questions previously on Lord Hester, Lord Bamford, Shell, and Infosys (just in the last 4 years)

No it isn't. Only by people seeking to deflect by saying, "Yerbut..."

What is being discussed is the judgement and integrity of a Prime Minister who stood outside Downing Street 11 weeks ago and promised a re-set by saying:

"But now our country has voted, decisively. For change. For national renewal. And a return of politics to public service. When the gap between the sacrifices made by people and the service they receive from politicians grows this big, it leads to a weariness in the heart of a nation. This lack of trust, can only be healed by actions not words. I know that. But we can make a start today with the simple acknowledgment that public service is a privilege."

Then a couple of months in, it transpires he and his family have received tens and ten of thousands pounds worth of free stuff that frankly he's quite capable of buying himself - in large funded by a bloke who got a security pass to Downing Street for no purpose of National Interest or public service that anybody in government has been able to suggest.

Everybody knew the previous lot were on the make. Starmer promised to do better.

 

[Super Steve Earle]

what was it about 'digging' you said yesterday?

Two things

1) For the record I have appologised for a number of misjudged posts on here. I’m self-aware enough to know when I have overstepped the mark. Regarding your post, I stated an opinion about the merits of your thread, which I still believe, and which you do not agree with. What on earth is the big deal that a day later you're still going on about it? Stop being so precious. Had I been rude or offensive then fair enough..but I wasn’t. There is no need for anyone to apologize.
2) I eat liver, I am man enough.

And there we have it. Doubling down on being wrong. No apology. And I wasn't even replying to you. Do you always persist in your 'beliefs' and 'opinions' when you have been told categorically by the originator that you are wrong? I'll leave you to have the last word because you can't stop yourself. But I won't be opening the alert when it pops up. Enjoy your day.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

No it isn't. Only by people seeking to deflect by saying, "Yerbut..."

What is being discussed is the judgement and integrity of a Prime Minister who stood outside Downing Street 11 weeks ago and promised a re-set by saying:

"But now our country has voted, decisively. For change. For national renewal. And a return of politics to public service. When the gap between the sacrifices made by people and the service they receive from politicians grows this big, it leads to a weariness in the heart of a nation. This lack of trust, can only be healed by actions not words. I know that. But we can make a start today with the simple acknowledgment that public service is a privilege."

Then a couple of months in, it transpires he and his family have received tens and ten of thousands pounds worth of free stuff that frankly he's quite capable of buying himself - in large funded by a bloke who got a security pass to Downing Street for no purpose of National Interest or public service that anybody in government has been able to suggest.

Everybody knew the previous lot were on the make. Starmer promised to do better.

Where’s the lack of trust? It was all declared and as I pointed out, most Prime Ministers get perks.