The Jeremy Corbyn thread

[pastafarian]

Apologies for not making it abundantly clear that we are talking about the level of free access although I assumed that was obvious. It's a bit like the 'Leavers' banging on about us now being able to trade with the rest of the world when we already could!!!!

its not obvious to everyone,some divs actually believe now that to have access to the single market you have to pay a fee and accept free movement.

As for free movement.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ingle-market-access-no-free-movement-citizens

with all due respect can i just put this down as grabbing at straws.
i have family in Switzerland,ive followed their referendum debate very closely with regards to free movement, a guardian article quoting Philipp Müller who has always been opposed to quotas on immigration really cuts no mustard. A Guardian article now bringing it up at this present moment is also rather questionable .Swiss talks were suspended whilst our referendum was going on and they still cant agree to resume them.....its a bit to be honest chap.

If you are genuinely interested in their outcome and how it will affect us(and i believe yes the swiss question could come into play) add the english version of swiss news http://www.thelocal.ch/ to your reading material,it reports from all sides of political debate

 

[CheeseRolls]

one of these days those remainers on here that say you have to have free movement and pay a fee to "access" the single market will admit they are lying and that every country (unless subject to trade sanctions) has "access" to and can trade with members of the single market and most countries do not incorporate EU free movement or pay a fee.

They could of course clarify the level of "access" in their argument but this doesn’t sit easy with project fear, always best to scare people and make them falsely believe simple "access" only comes at a price.
It is quite possible of course some are posting in good faith and have actually unwittingly believed the lies told to them, but it would appear its simply group speak that sounds better to people that know better but are prepared to continue the myth

I suspect that rather than lying being the issue, it is a combination of semantics - access is entirely different to free access and maybe a lack of understanding on your part.I assume that we are all talking about the UK shifting from the left side of the diagram below to the right side.

The sticking point becomes trade versus immigration. Free trade removes us from the European political project and possibly from overarching European law, but comes at a cost (we will likely make no saving on our EU contributions, having surrendered any influence the UK has over the "european project") and the legal bill for unpicking 40 years of integrated legal frameworks, will be interesting to compare to the cost of shifting bureacrats between Brussels and Strassburg. Good luck to the NHS, don't expect your rebate any day soon.

A strong line on immigration will not block access to European markets, but will likely increase tariffs and ironically bureaucracy around imports and exports. This will have a major impact on long term investment in this country. A simple example there is no EU trade agreement with Japan. Japanese cars attract import tariffs and quotas if they are manufactured outside of the EU. There will not be an immediate switch, but they will plan to shift production into the larger market, if a UK production base, increases the selling cost into a major market. The are plenty more examples where trade partners outside of the EU have made it clear they prefer to have a European base in the UK, as it is a great base for trading in Europe.

Do I need to go on about the benefits to the scientific, academic and research communities around integration ?

 

[pastafarian]

Its a very good point, however good luck in trying to make a proft exporting to the Eurozone when facing steep taxes and customs delays against the likes of China with their manufacturing might and low overheads.

This does play into the wider point of what we can negotiate with regards to access of the EU single market,i understand the difficulties about tariffs and non tariff barriers,i understand the concerns.

My point still stands though,not everyone understands the different levels of access that can be achieved with negotiations or indeed there are different levels of access in the first place.We can all trade in the single market.

It is grossly misleading for people to be saying we have to have free movement or pay a fee for access to the single market. It seems this is simply an unfounded rhetoric to put a spoke in the works with regard to the negotiations.

surely the best way forward is to drop all the crap now from both sides and concentrate on the best possible exit whilst promoting the country as open for business

 

[pastafarian]

This issue on market access and immigration is one for our negotiators and in practice anything is possible in the outcome.

This is now just a big 'wait and see' situation.

except free movement of course,its a red line issue as is returning law making powers to Westminster and the supremacy of our courts with regards to conflicts with EU law.

the trade issue i agree is open to all sorts of deals and yes its a waiting game now
will the EU play hard ball and punish us and try to put off anyone else leaving?.....i hope not......i cant see how this is in the economic interest to their own manufacturers and exporters.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

except free movement of course,its a red line issue as is returning law making powers to Westminster and the supremacy of our courts with regards to conflicts with EU law.

the trade issue i agree is open to all sorts of deals and yes its a waiting game now
will the EU play hard ball and punish us and try to put off anyone else leaving?.....i hope not......i cant see how this is in the economic interest to their own manufacturers and exporters.

There will be a negotiated outcome. Of course free movement as it stands will probably change. How much it will change is not a red line as such. Will we have quotas, waiting lists, emergency breaks, points ( and what gets points ) - no one knows and it is all up for grabs.

One person's red line is not the same as another person's red line.

 

[beorhthelm]

One person's red line is not the same as another person's red line.

how true, for some freedom of movement was never much of an issue. and, as i have said before, if the actual rules were applied then we may not be in such a situation with regards to some of the lower skilled, opportunist immigrants. i forsee a classic EU fudge, where they will offer a "special" deal for free movement of labour, which will be the same as the current, but reworded, restated and republished with a slightly different title.

 

[West Hoathly Seagull]

A repeat of my post on the next Prime Minister thread:

Rumours are now circulating at Westminster about a new centre party being formed by Labour MPs if Jeremy Corbyn stays in place and by Tories if Andrea Leadsom wins their leadership. Peter Oborne first hinted at this on the Week in Westminster on the Saturday after the referendum:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...-tory-mps-talk

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...ted-at-westmi/

Depending on the result of the Tory leadership contest, this might interest me, as I know it might some on here (as a member of the Mid Sussex Association at that time I watched in despair in 2001 as the MPs rejected Michael Portillo, then voted for Ken Clarke, knowing the membership would go for Iain Duncan-Smith). The thing I can't understand is though, why form a new party, why not just defect to the Liberal Democrats en masse? A new party would have to work closely with them in a General Election anyway.

 

[glasfryn]

They clearly don't care about electability because they're still waiting for the "revolution" to arrive spontaneously. A bunch of dinosaurs at least twenty years out of date!?

While I cannot understand Corbyn's desperation to cling to power, given his almost total lack of support from his MPs, I haven't forgotten that Labour MPs put themselves in this position in the first place by nominating JC to stand to, rather patronisingly I thought, "stimulate a debate across all sectors of the party"!

Classic case of be careful what you wish for......?


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not forgetting the many grass roots Labour party memberes who voted for him, and they will vote for him again and he will be elected leader again and I doubt those who are trying to get him out will ever be heard of again, well as MP's anyway.
those who have voted for him percieve that these MP's who want him out are Blairites, watered down tories and will find themselves looking for employment some time soon.
I just wish there was a suitable candidate other than JC but unfortunately nobody is standing out of the crowd and this would just happen now with the tories in absolute disarray, backstabbing one another like theres no tomorrow.
the tory leadership does not fill me with any hope either

 

[drew]

not forgetting the many grass roots Labour party memberes who voted for him, and they will vote for him again and he will be elected leader again and I doubt those who are trying to get him out will ever be heard of again, well as MP's anyway.
those who have voted for him percieve that these MP's who want him out are Blairites, watered down tories and will find themselves looking for employment some time soon.
I just wish there was a suitable candidate other than JC but unfortunately nobody is standing out of the crowd and this would just happen now with the tories in absolute disarray, backstabbing one another like theres no tomorrow.
the tory leadership does not fill me with any hope either

And if that came to pass then JC will never see power because he'll never attract enough of the middle ground electorate so can spend the rest of his parliamentary life doing what he has always done, protesting from the sidelines.

 

[glasfryn]

And if that came to pass then JC will never see power because he'll never attract enough of the middle ground electorate so can spend the rest of his parliamentary life doing what he has always done, protesting from the sidelines.

bit like the "remains" saying the electorate would never vote against the "norm" they got that wrong too
we are in an era when just about anything can happen
jeez I should have had a bet the cameron would go straight after the referendum

 

[Ernest]

Against Leadsom Jeremy Corbyn would seem the better option and would win by a landslide as long as they kick out all the Blairites first

 

[London Irish]

Below is the BBC South East report of the Brighton Momentum meeting held yesterday at the Brighthelme Centre to support Jeremy Corbyn, the room held 300 and I was one of the 200 who was left outside and had to go to the pub instead!

Even more remarkable was that straight afterwards was held the district meeting AGM of Brighton Labour Party (covering the three parliamentary seats of Pavilion, Kemptown and Hove) - in a room for 250 people at City College but 800 turned up!!!!

The meeting had to be held 3 times with 250 people each time entering the hall as 250 left - I was in the third and final sitting. These amazing numbers represented an incredible flowering of democracy and grassroots participation in our town. Happy to say officers were elected to lead Brighton Labour Party all supporting Jeremy Corbyn by big margins. Corbynites are now in charge of the local party here.

https://www.facebook.com/BBCSouthEastToday/videos/10154325192288648/?pnref=story

 

[Ernest]

Below is the BBC South East report of the Brighton Momentum meeting held yesterday at the Brighthelme Centre to support Jeremy Corbyn, the room held 300 and I was one of the 200 who was left outside and had to go to the pub instead!

Even more remarkable was that straight afterwards was held the district meeting AGM of Brighton Labour Party (covering the three parliamentary seats of Pavilion, Kemptown and Hove) - in a room for 250 people at City College but 800 turned up!!!!

The meeting had to be held 3 times with 250 people each time entering the hall as 250 left - I was in the third and final sitting. These amazing numbers represented an incredible flowering of democracy and grassroots participation in our town. Happy to say officers were elected to lead Brighton Labour Party all supporting Jeremy Corbyn by big margins. Corbynites are now in charge of the local party here.

https://www.facebook.com/BBCSouthEastToday/videos/10154325192288648/?pnref=story

And Peter Kyle sat there with a face like thunder, he is in big trouble now, the disloyal ****

 

[London Irish]

Sorry but my old party are in a mess. They are all aligned as one largely in terms of members but the parliamentary party who are actually closer to the public majority in viewpoint (except for this referendum) are on a different plane

They are two leaders from power. The next one will be seen as undoing corbyn's work (like kinnock was to foot/callaghan /Wilson) and the one that follows may be seen as the electable one (john Smith had a 16point lead over major when he died)

Did you go yesterday? How on earth can you have the brass neck to say the party is in a mess? We have so many new members joining we can't find anywhere to put them

 

[Don Quixote]

Did you go yesterday? How on earth can you have the brass neck to say the party is in a mess? We have so many new members joining we can't find anywhere to put them

Probably because we have a leader who the members want, but the MPs do not, whose position has become untenable, but will not step down. The party might even split apart. Looks like a mess to me.

 

[glasfryn]

Probably because we have a leader who the members want, but the MPs do not, whose position has become untenable, but will not step down. The party might even split apart. Looks like a mess to me.

the only mess is with the Labour MP's they really do not know what what the electorate want
seems to me like they might have trouble finding over a hundred prospective Labour MP's to replace the blairites although out of over 600k members they surley will find some who want what the grass roots want

 

[Ernest]

the only mess is with the Labour MP's they really do not know what what the electorate want
seems to me like they might have trouble finding over a hundred prospective Labour MP's to replace the blairites although out of over 600k members they surley will find some who want what the grass roots want

I shall put my name forward to stand for HOVE

 

[CheeseRolls]

Did you go yesterday? How on earth can you have the brass neck to say the party is in a mess? We have so many new members joining we can't find anywhere to put them

How many of those who turned up support Jeremy Corbyn AND Caroline Lucas ? Great that so many want to participate in democratic decisions, not so great that they only have one vote come an election.

 

[beorhthelm]

the only mess is with the Labour MP's they really do not know what what the electorate want

there's the problem, the rump of the Labour MP's understand of what a proportion of the electorate want, but the membership is being taken over by a group that understand what a smaller proportion of the electorate want. Corbyn and Chairman McDonnell simply wont appeal to vast swaths of the country with center-left views, just as UKIP wont appeal to the center right. they'll still get 200 seats from the north and a few other urban centers, its not enough to get anywhere near elected.

 

[glasfryn]

there's the problem, the rump of the Labour MP's understand of what a proportion of the electorate want, but the membership is being taken over by a group that understand what a smaller proportion of the electorate want. Corbyn and Chairman McDonnell simply wont appeal to vast swaths of the country with center-left views, just as UKIP wont appeal to the center right. they'll still get 200 seats from the north and a few other urban centers, its not enough to get anywhere near elected.

I thought exactly that ..................but now I am not sure...........joe public are in a very funny mood, one word BREXIT who would have thought that was going to happen, definitely not cameron, or osbourne thats for sure
"theres nout so queer as folk" as they say up north