The Jeremy Corbyn thread

[8ace]

[MENTION=38]Beach Hut[/MENTION] is new SHADOW trains minister

I thought he'd be shadow DOGGING minister

 

[Seagull58]

Its also worth saying that those who call for getting rid of unlimited freedom of movement within Europe are not talking about closing borders. This is an accusation used to shut down debate. Instead, what is envisaged is control over freedom of movement and is much the same arrangement as we have with many countries worldwide ie we can have visa free travel and if someone is offered a job in another country the necessary work permit would be issued. The change on current policy is that people cannot move to another country to look for a job and by stopping this we take the pressure off local unskilled workers and allow wages to rise. This is quite clearly not a bigoted position but the establishment has saught to make it so. It is a measure the EU could have brought in to better represent the views of its citizens but it chose not to.

That is far too sensible for many of the posters on here. Also, exactly the situation for me. I can travel here from the UK visa free but must get a work permit to stay and work. A general work permit is increasingly difficult to obtain (with unemployment at 30%+) but if you can prove you have skills on the critical skills list you can get a critical skills work permit.

 

[Soulman]

Serial rebel and 81-year-old MP Paul Flynn became the oldest frontbencher since Gladstone yesterday. The left-winger joined Labour's top team after 27 years on the backbenches – taking over as shadow leader of the Commons.

It really is that desperate.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Labour civil war/disintegration/split

Angela Eagle has said she will announce her bid for the leadership of the Labour Party on Monday.

Ms Eagle, who resigned as shadow business secretary last week, said leader Jeremy Corbyn had failed "to lead an organised and effective" party.

Mr Corbyn's spokesman insisted he would remain as leader of the party and would fight any leadership challenge.

It comes after Labour deputy leader Tom Watson called off talks with unions aimed at resolving the stand-off.

Mr Corbyn has refused to step down despite a vote of no confidence passed by the party's MPs last month - and many resignations from his shadow cabinet - in the wake of the EU referendum.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36753769

Looks like Corbyn is going to hang on to the bitter end with the Union's blessing.

Should have done the .. .. decent thing weeks ago.

 

[GT49er]

I heard that rumour

Angela Eagle has said she will announce her bid for the leadership of the Labour Party on Monday.

Ms Eagle, who resigned as shadow business secretary last week, said leader Jeremy Corbyn had failed "to lead an organised and effective" party.

Mr Corbyn's spokesman insisted he would remain as leader of the party and would fight any leadership challenge.

It comes after Labour deputy leader Tom Watson called off talks with unions aimed at resolving the stand-off.

Mr Corbyn has refused to step down despite a vote of no confidence passed by the party's MPs last month - and many resignations from his shadow cabinet - in the wake of the EU referendum.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36753769

Looks like Corbyn is going to hang on to the bitter end with the Union's blessing.

Should have done the .. .. decent thing weeks ago.

There is much talk of the split in the tory party between many of its MPs, who are remainers, and much of its grass roots members who are more prone to be pro Brexit. What nobody in the Labour Party seems to have woken up to yet is that it is exactly the same in the Labour camp. Vast swathes of Labour heartlands came out, entirely against the wishes of their party leaders, for Brexit.
I suspect Corbyn is actually more pro Brexit than pro remain; I'm sure he was anti EU at some time in the past. What would be really interesting would be for him to pull a flanker on the PLP, come out in favour of Brexit - and sweep aside all challenges on the strength of the grass roots members' votes. That would be even more fun than all the current hand-wringing that's going on!

 

[JC Footy Genius]

There is much talk of the split in the tory party between many of its MPs, who are remainers, and much of its grass roots members who are more prone to be pro Brexit. What nobody in the Labour Party seems to have woken up to yet is that it is exactly the same in the Labour camp. Vast swathes of Labour heartlands came out, entirely against the wishes of their party leaders, for Brexit.
I suspect Corbyn is actually more pro Brexit than pro remain; I'm sure he was anti EU at some time in the past. What would be really interesting would be for him to pull a flanker on the PLP, come out in favour of Brexit - and sweep aside all challenges on the strength of the grass roots members' votes. That would be even more fun than all the current hand-wringing that's going on!

Unfortunately for the Labour party I think there is a bigger more substantive difference between the Mp's and party members beliefs. Corbyn and his fellow travellers are more about ideological posturing and the politics of protest whereas most of their MP's realise you need to be in power to stand up for and enact policies that protect and advance the needs of the vulnerable and disadvantaged.

The Tory membership doesn't reflect mainstream public opinion either but they seem to grasp the simple premise that you need to be in government to bring about change. I wonder how many General election defeats it will take before Labour members and the Unions realise this.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Unfortunately for the Labour party I think there is a bigger more substantive difference between the Mp's and party members beliefs. Corbyn and his fellow travellers are more about ideological posturing and the politics of protest whereas most of their MP's realise you need to be in power to stand up for and enact policies that protect and advance the needs of the vulnerable and disadvantaged.

The Tory membership doesn't reflect mainstream public opinion either but they seem to grasp the simple premise that you need to be in government to bring about change. I wonder how many General election defeats it will take before Labour members and the Unions realise this.

This hits the bulls eye for me. My expectation has been that the tories will go for Leadsome, and antagonise the parliamentary party; but either way, I expect cohesion in the party, especially now that Europe has become a dead issue for them (after decades of poison).

In labour's case, however, it could be said that the only sensible thing about Corbyn is (was) his lukewarm support for the EU membership, something not driven by student politic style posteuring. However, despite his being anti EU in most of his history, he won't put his shoulder into it now, and will soldier on, probably being re-elected because, in contrast to the Tories, in labour the activists (voters for the leader) just don't understand what winning is all about. Which is why they hate TB and have disgustingly joined in with his defenestration over WMD etc. Corbyn apologised for the war. The little shit.

I have never voted conservative, but I'm not irredeemably doctrinaire. If labour have Corbyn in charge, and a load of candidates hand picked by Momentum in 2020, I will vote for May. I won't vote for Leadsome however. I shall watch the telly and drink wine rather than vote.

Anyway . . . . interesting times and I will try my best to enjoy them

 

[JC Footy Genius]

This hits the bulls eye for me. My expectation has been that the tories will go for Leadsome, and antagonise the parliamentary party; but either way, I expect cohesion in the party, especially now that Europe has become a dead issue for them (after decades of poison).

In labour's case, however, it could be said that the only sensible thing about Corbyn is (was) his lukewarm support for the EU membership, something not driven by student politic style posteuring. However, despite his being anti EU in most of his history, he won't put his shoulder into it now, and will soldier on, probably being re-elected because, in contrast to the Tories, in labour the activists (voters for the leader) just don't understand what winning is all about. Which is why they hate TB and have disgustingly joined in with his defenestration over WMD etc. Corbyn apologised for the war. The little shit.

I have never voted conservative, but I'm not irredeemably doctrinaire. If labour have Corbyn in charge, and a load of candidates hand picked by Momentum in 2020, I will vote for May. I won't vote for Leadsome however. I shall watch the telly and drink wine rather than vote.

Anyway . . . . interesting times and I will try my best to enjoy them

You may be right but I think May ticks more of the 'Mrs T' boxes and is the safer/Conservative option so will most likely win. A silver lining will be that it convinces many sensible Labour voters to vote May rather than abstaining/voting Corbyn ... but watching the telly and drinking wine does seem a reasonable alternative.

Yes I could barely keep down the bile as Corbyn made the apology .. even if they had found 100 tons of Nukes/WMD he would still have opposed the war.

 

[Surf's Up]

Unfortunately for the Labour party I think there is a bigger more substantive difference between the Mp's and party members beliefs. Corbyn and his fellow travellers are more about ideological posturing and the politics of protest whereas most of their MP's realise you need to be in power to stand up for and enact policies that protect and advance the needs of the vulnerable and disadvantaged.

The Tory membership doesn't reflect mainstream public opinion either but they seem to grasp the simple premise that you need to be in government to bring about change. I wonder how many General election defeats it will take before Labour members and the Unions realise this.

Exactly this - but the hard left were never going to give up power once they had stumbled into it.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Exactly this - but the hard left were never going to give up power once they had stumbled into it.

Very true. Sadly some people seem to think Corbyn represents a return to real Labour values, dam the consequences or the people that rely on them to represent their interests.

 

[5ways]

Its also worth saying that those who call for getting rid of unlimited freedom of movement within Europe are not talking about closing borders. This is an accusation used to shut down debate. Instead, what is envisaged is control over freedom of movement and is much the same arrangement as we have with many countries worldwide ie we can have visa free travel and if someone is offered a job in another country the necessary work permit would be issued. The change on current policy is that people cannot move to another country to look for a job and by stopping this we take the pressure off local unskilled workers and allow wages to rise. This is quite clearly not a bigoted position but the establishment has saught to make it so. It is a measure the EU could have brought in to better represent the views of its citizens but it chose not to.

It's envisioned because it is a mirage. It is perfectly clear we will have free movement after a settlement to retain access to the single market. The changes you are proposing are damaging to the UK labour market as it creates congestion and bureaucracy and limits the profitability of time-sensitive businesses. Also EU migration has not suppressed wages across the whole economy and I don't know why wages would rise when we are in a Brexit-induced slump.

Greater control over-immigration should have been offered by the EU during the renegotiation, and I'm sure they regret not doing it now.

 

[portslade seagull]

It's envisioned because it is a mirage. It is perfectly clear we will have free movement after a settlement to retain access to the single market. The changes you are proposing are damaging to the UK labour market as it creates congestion and bureaucracy and limits the profitability of time-sensitive businesses. Also EU migration has not suppressed wages across the whole economy and I don't know why wages would rise when we are in a Brexit-induced slump.

Greater control over-immigration should have been offered by the EU during the renegotiation, and I'm sure they regret not doing it now.

You will probably find it was a 50/50 split hence they couldn't agree on it

 

[GT49er]

It's envisioned because it is a mirage. It is perfectly clear we will have free movement after a settlement to retain access to the single market.

No it isn't.

Greater control over-immigration should have been offered by the EU during the renegotiation, and I'm sure they regret not doing it now.

Yes; they called our bluff. And called it wrong. Thankfully the pathetic petition has been rejected, and all the major players in the political game now (well both really, 'cos it's only May and Leadsome) have come out and said that the referendum is binding, we are leaving. Guess the remainers will be moaning about that for a while yet.....................................

 

[drew]

No it isn't.


Yes; they called our bluff. And called it wrong. Thankfully the pathetic petition has been rejected, and all the major players in the political game now (well both really, 'cos it's only May and Leadsome) have come out and said that the referendum is binding, we are leaving. Guess the remainers will be moaning about that for a while yet.....................................

Of course we'll still moan. As with all the Brexit fans, there is no clear direction as to what we are seeking as part of any agreement for access to the free market. Seems that the consensus is that to have access to the free market we will have to pay and accept free movement. Something we did as members. Nobody has a clear plan and nobody seems to have a clue as to what the deal breakers are for the negotiations.

 

[GT49er]

Of course we'll still moan. As with all the Brexit fans, there is no clear direction as to what we are seeking as part of any agreement for access to the free market. Seems that the consensus is that to have access to the free market we will have to pay and accept free movement. Something we did as members. Nobody has a clear plan and nobody seems to have a clue as to what the deal breakers are for the negotiations.

Yes, but there certainly ISN'T a consensus that that's a price we're willing to pay.

 

[pastafarian]

Yes, but there certainly ISN'T a consensus that that's a price we're willing to pay.

one of these days those remainers on here that say you have to have free movement and pay a fee to "access" the single market will admit they are lying and that every country (unless subject to trade sanctions) has "access" to and can trade with members of the single market and most countries do not incorporate EU free movement or pay a fee.

They could of course clarify the level of "access" in their argument but this doesn’t sit easy with project fear, always best to scare people and make them falsely believe simple "access" only comes at a price.
It is quite possible of course some are posting in good faith and have actually unwittingly believed the lies told to them, but it would appear its simply group speak that sounds better to people that know better but are prepared to continue the myth

 

[HitchinSeagull]

one of these days those remainers on here that say you have to have free movement and pay a fee to "access" the single market will admit they are lying and that every country (unless subject to trade sanctions) has "access" to and can trade with members of the single market and most countries do not incorporate EU free movement or pay a fee.

They could of course clarify the level of "access" in their argument but this doesn’t sit easy with project fear, always best to scare people and make them falsely believe simple "access" only comes at a price.
It is quite possible of course some are posting in good faith and have actually unwittingly believed the lies told to them, but it would appear its simply group speak that sounds better to people that know better but are prepared to continue the myth

Its a very good point, however good luck in trying to make a proft exporting to the Eurozone when facing steep taxes and customs delays against the likes of China with their manufacturing might and low overheads.

 

[drew]

one of these days those remainers on here that say you have to have free movement and pay a fee to "access" the single market will admit they are lying and that every country (unless subject to trade sanctions) has "access" to and can trade with members of the single market and most countries do not incorporate EU free movement or pay a fee.

They could of course clarify the level of "access" in their argument but this doesn’t sit easy with project fear, always best to scare people and make them falsely believe simple "access" only comes at a price.
It is quite possible of course some are posting in good faith and have actually unwittingly believed the lies told to them, but it would appear its simply group speak that sounds better to people that know better but are prepared to continue the myth

Apologies for not making it abundantly clear that we are talking about the level of free access although I assumed that was obvious. It's a bit like the 'Leavers' banging on about us now being able to trade with the rest of the world when we already could!!!!

As for free movement.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ingle-market-access-no-free-movement-citizens

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

one of these days those remainers on here that say you have to have free movement and pay a fee to "access" the single market will admit they are lying and that every country (unless subject to trade sanctions) has "access" to and can trade with members of the single market and most countries do not incorporate EU free movement or pay a fee.

They could of course clarify the level of "access" in their argument but this doesn’t sit easy with project fear, always best to scare people and make them falsely believe simple "access" only comes at a price.
It is quite possible of course some are posting in good faith and have actually unwittingly believed the lies told to them, but it would appear its simply group speak that sounds better to people that know better but are prepared to continue the myth

This issue on market access and immigration is one for our negotiators and in practice anything is possible in the outcome.

It's actually a bit of a theoretical argument as what we get will be what we get. The public is out of it now until the next election. Leadsome or May will bring back that deal and there is nothing we can do about it.

My view is it would be insane to not bring back the EU Banking Passport. I'd give up any other position for that. I don't expect a letter asking me to negotiate it though.

This is now just a big 'wait and see' situation.

 

[biddles911]

Exactly this - but the hard left were never going to give up power once they had stumbled into it.

They clearly don't care about electability because they're still waiting for the "revolution" to arrive spontaneously. A bunch of dinosaurs at least twenty years out of date!?

While I cannot understand Corbyn's desperation to cling to power, given his almost total lack of support from his MPs, I haven't forgotten that Labour MPs put themselves in this position in the first place by nominating JC to stand to, rather patronisingly I thought, "stimulate a debate across all sectors of the party"!

Classic case of be careful what you wish for......?


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