The Jeremy Corbyn thread

[jakarta]

Plus ca change GCCM!

For those on the genuine left of the Party, the Party was stolen from them by Blair in '94.

Blair and his supporters were no less organised and ruthless as Momentum, arguably more so. People like Campbell and Mandelson hollowed out the old Labour Party from the new labour party.

If you can remember, they changed the Labour Party constitution to enable it to embrace privatisation of British industry and then chucked out the RMT, one of the founding unions for the Party when they refused to back it.

Their drive to become politically centrist and pro EU were entirely new policies and created set in motion the consequences of alienating their core traditional working class voters........

The PLP may moan about the theft of their party but they are the original thieves.

Dreadful people, they won 3 General Elections with their centrist and new policies. Back to the 1970's and proper socialism I say...

 

[The Clamp]

That last paragraph just about sums up your pomposity Nibble.

And Alfredmizen has the weight of history on his side when he says that Corbyn played no part in the peace process. He rooted for one side and one side only.

It's why Midnight Rendezvous has not rebutted any of the points.

I would imagine MR is not responding because there is simply no point. Mizen has made up his mind, he doesn't want for MR to come up with evidence, he wants to chase him across the thread and goad him into an argument. MR has sensibly withdrawn and cut off Mizen's oxygen. I shall follow MR's lead. Have a top day.

 

[jimhigham]

To tax those that work bloody hard to earn a decent crust, more, to give to those that can't be arsed to get out of bed in the morning. That's a fairer society, right?

You didn't include some sort of wink gesture so I'm guessing you're being serious? If so, while that sort of stuff doubtless does go on, I'd like to offer up my own tiny example.

I've never been unemployed a day of my adult life. I started work the day after my last A Level exam and joined the civil service a year later. I've been there 24 years now. I've taken on specialist roles, put myself in harm's way, ended up covered in another chap's blood and represented our country overseas. I've been on a pay freeze for six years now. A glance through my P60s shows a considerable drop in net pay from where I was in 2010. I've cut back on gym membership, SkySports and so on. I drive a rubbish car, have a rubbish phone and a rubbish telly so that I can try and get my daughter through university some time soon. I'm trying to build a photography business from the ground up alongside my full time job.

My point is, I work quite hard actually. I don't consider myself to be mooching off the state. I don't really think it is all that fair that I find myself going backwards year or year because of the mistakes of the investment banking fraternity and past governments. Perhaps a slightly more even distribution might be in order?

We'll never have a perfectly fair society of course but does that mean we shouldn't even bother trying to hone the one we have?

 

[cunning fergus]

Dreadful people, they won 3 General Elections with their centrist and new policies. Back to the 1970's and proper socialism I say...

I think you know full well that your sentiment was not my point.

Quite simply many in the PLP and Blairite side of the party should not be moaning about how this process has happened. They set these events in motion, they are a direct consequence.

They have reaped what they sowed..........they are now adrift from the political profile of their party, and beyond a cohort of middle class voters in some cities they do not even represent the traditional voters of their party.

They should now be deselected if they won't respect their own democratic system.........a theme of our times.

 

[The Antikythera Mechanism]

You didn't include some sort of wink gesture so I'm guessing you're being serious? If so, while that sort of stuff doubtless does go on, I'd like to offer up my own tiny example.

I've never been unemployed a day of my adult life. I started work the day after my last A Level exam and joined the civil service a year later. I've been there 24 years now. I've taken on specialist roles, put myself in harm's way, ended up covered in another chap's blood and represented our country overseas. I've been on a pay freeze for six years now. A glance through my P60s shows a considerable drop in net pay from where I was in 2010. I've cut back on gym membership, SkySports and so on. I drive a rubbish car, have a rubbish phone and a rubbish telly so that I can try and get my daughter through university some time soon. I'm trying to build a photography business from the ground up alongside my full time job.

My point is, I work quite hard actually. I don't consider myself to be mooching off the state. I don't really think it is all that fair that I find myself going backwards year or year because of the mistakes of the investment banking fraternity and past governments. Perhaps a slightly more even distribution might be in order?

We'll never have a perfectly fair society of course but does that mean we shouldn't even bother trying to hone the one we have?

Anyone who tries to get work, is in any way disabled or is unable to work because of genuine health reasons deserves help. My, somewhat,flippant comment was aimed at the lazy *******s who through their own shortcomings have nothing, but envy those that do with a passion.The world does not owe everyone a living although they'd like to think it does.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Plus ca change GCCM!

For those on the genuine left of the Party, the Party was stolen from them by Blair in '94.

Blair and his supporters were no less organised and ruthless as Momentum, arguably more so. People like Campbell and Mandelson hollowed out the old Labour Party from the new labour party.

If you can remember, they changed the Labour Party constitution to enable it to embrace privatisation of British industry and then chucked out the RMT, one of the founding unions for the Party when they refused to back it.

Their drive to become politically centrist and pro EU were entirely new policies and created set in motion the consequences of alienating their core traditional working class voters........

The PLP may moan about the theft of their party but they are the original thieves.

The process of making the party electable again, after years of being totally irrelevant to most people, was Neil Kinnock. Had John Smith lived, he, not Blair, would have been Prime Minister in 1997. As it was that responsibility fell to Tony Blair, the only Labour leader to win three elections in its history and now, the only Labour leader to win a general election in more than 40 years. Think about that for a moment. He did this by putting together an attractive package of policies which reached out to the centre ground; by running a professional campaign and by charismatic leadership. Blair, for all his mistakes over Iraq, remains the best political communicator the Labour Party has had for many decades. Corbyn showed he can win a leadership election against a poor internal candidate but let's see if can persuade the country to win one general election, let alone three.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I would imagine MR is not responding because there is simply no point. Mizen has made up his mind, he doesn't want for MR to come up with evidence, he wants to chase him across the thread and goad him into an argument. MR has sensibly withdrawn and cut off Mizen's oxygen. I shall follow MR's lead. Have a top day.

Strange how IRA sympathisers just run away and aren't prepared to put up a decent argument as to why Corbyn supported them. Too inconvenient I guess !

 

[NooBHA]

I would imagine MR is not responding because there is simply no point. Mizen has made up his mind, he doesn't want for MR to come up with evidence, he wants to chase him across the thread and goad him into an argument. MR has sensibly withdrawn and cut off Mizen's oxygen. I shall follow MR's lead. Have a top day.

I totally agree................................there is no point in carrying on a discussion when you are speaking to someone whose mind is made up. I wouldn't want to change their minds anyhow. That's what democracy is. It allows us all to have our own views.

We all have differing views on things and I am happy to embrace other peoples beliefs even if they are not the same as my own. Jeremy Corbyn is a ''do-gooder'' and he wants to do things by peaceful means at all costs. That's what I like about him. That's what others don't like about him He champions the underdog and the deprived and the ones struggling to stand up for themselves. That's why I like him and support him. Others don't support him for the same reason as I like him.

Others like tough politicians who stand up and fight because they believe that it is the survival of the fittest and only the strong survive. I don't mind that view either because to a certain extent that's true.

The reason I don't have that view is because I don't like to see the weak over run by the strong or the rich. Look at Syria and Lybia. The weak are being over run by the strong so the weak migrate then we have people who don't like immigration, claiming ''we feel sorry for them but we don't want them here on our shores''

This happened with the Yugonots in France who were French protestants who had to flee persecution in France from the Catholics. They sought safety in Scotland, predominantly Protestant then.

You have to solve the problem in their own lands or all you do is move the problem on - Corbyn recognised that about Northern Ireland, hence his support of Catholics in Northern Ireland. He wanted dialogue between both Parties which the UK Government was refusing dialogue with the Militant wing of the Catholic people.

Palestine will never be solved unless Israel communicate with Hammas. That's a fact. There is a recent success story in relation to similar issues that we can all learn from and that is Kosovo.

So many atrocities occurred there. Mainly because it was an Ethnic Albanian overspill into traditional Serbian land. After years of atrocities, the International Community forced Serbia to recognise Kosovo as a free independent state. The Serbians didn't like it. They still don't but at least we have had over 20 years of peace.

So much as we should never have to bow to terrorism. We somehow have to try and find out what they are fighting for and try and find a solution otherwise people will go on dying everywhere around the world. We are lucky we in part at least, we resolved the Irish solution. No one will be happy with everything but COMPROMISE IS THE ONLY OPTION. That's the concept the really strong willed and physically strong people find hard to do - That's because they think...........No I am strong, I can fight for it and get more because I am stronger than the opposition. Corbyn just wanted to do it in a different way from continuing to blow each other up because the IRA had started to take their bombing to UK shores by then and that was putting the British people at risk in their own country.

One final note on the above - One thing I don't agree with is that you DON'T COMPROMISE with people who are fighting for an ideology that will be of detriment to others but if they have genuine concerns then most definitely, the world needs to listen - We have no other option

WAR AND DEATH WILL MIGRATE AROUND THE WORLD IF WE DONT SOLVE THE PROBLEM AT ITS SOURCE

 

[jonny.rainbow]

Oh yes, the ' voters are stupid and do what the press say argument.' Heard that a lot in the Referendum campaign.
On your other point you say voters were shown 'some' of JC's policies. For goodness sake , I agree with some of JC's policies and I would never vote for him ! I would imagine 'some' diidn't include the deal breakers of unilateral nuclear disarmament, pacifism and open borders/unlimited immigration. These are middle class student concerns. The Northern working class will not vote for these policies. 70 % of Labour voters voted for Brexit ! I'm sorry but you and many other southern Labour people just don't understand the party and the country. Not sure how old you are but Ive seen it all before and am feeling quite disillusioned by the re-appearance of these delusional characters. Citizen Smith for Foreign Secretary ?

 

[Bolton va va]

People who aggressively claim Corbyn is an IRA sympathiser really have zero understanding of the nuances of political talks and negotiation and what it takes to bring peace to a country. Corbyn's talks lead to the first ceasefire. Thatchers government is now know to have been in secret talks with the IRA and they tried to blow her up! Rather forgiving of her I'd proffer.
The more militant on here would be happy to see the British military still pointlessly pounding away in NI which would of course mean the IRA would still be violently active.

I found this article interesting.

Please try to remember it's an opinion and should it differ to yours you are not entitled to become enraged. It makes you look a bit silly.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...-wrong-northern-ireland-so-was-nelson-mandela

There's nothing nuanced about it.......Corbyn supported the IRA at a time when they were murdering British citizens & soldiers, & at a time when they were bombing British towns & cities.

Corbyn had absolutely nothing to do with the talks & negotiations that eventually brought a ceasefire & peace to Ireland.....he chose to support the terrorist IRA rather than the more moderate SDLP, and he opposed & voted against the Anglo-Irish agreement, ( because it did not give in to all the IRA's demands )

 

[beorhthelm]

They have reaped what they sowed..........they are now adrift from the political profile of their party, and beyond a cohort of middle class voters in some cities they do not even represent the traditional voters of their party.

you refering to the PLP or the Corbynistas? its difficult to tell because both are claiming ownership of the party and as an outsider it seems that, as the new influx of members are agent of change, they are are the ones distorting the party. i dont know if they middle class, metro types, but the Corbynist/Momentum leaders certainly sound like that. i read that alot of the influx are Green members/voters, which tend not to be traditional working class types. so aren't the MPs voted by the consitutents the representation of the traditional voters, rather than representive of the Labour leadership? deselection to bring in a raft of candidates that central office support isnt necessarily going to represent voters.

 

[alfredmizen]

I would imagine MR is not responding because there is simply no point. Mizen has made up his mind, he doesn't want for MR to come up with evidence, he wants to chase him across the thread and goad him into an argument. MR has sensibly withdrawn and cut off Mizen's oxygen. I shall follow MR's lead. Have a top day.

Midnight rendezvous hasn't responded because he can't without admitting he was wrong , you won't respond for exactly the same reason, I haven't "made my mind up" without reason, the evidence is there for all to see, Corbyn is and was an IRA supporter , if you disagree you're welcome to rebut any of the points I made in post 1767 , the same applies to John McDonnell.

 

[alfredmizen]

There's nothing nuanced about it.......Corbyn supported the IRA at a time when they were murdering British citizens & soldiers, & at a time when they were bombing British towns & cities.

Corbyn had absolutely nothing to do with the talks & negotiations that eventually brought a ceasefire & peace to Ireland.....he chose to support the terrorist IRA rather than the more moderate SDLP, and he opposed & voted against the Anglo-Irish agreement, ( because it did not give in to all the IRA's demands )

This ^^^^.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

View attachment 78175

Sorry yes, I meant 70 % of Labour constituencies. Lucky I'm not a politician where I need to know these things.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/matth...brexit-labour-jeremy-corbyn-owen-smith-2016-9

my point though remains the same..........

 

[cunning fergus]

The process of making the party electable again, after years of being totally irrelevant to most people, was Neil Kinnock. Had John Smith lived, he, not Blair, would have been Prime Minister in 1997. As it was that responsibility fell to Tony Blair, the only Labour leader to win three elections in its history and now, the only Labour leader to win a general election in more than 40 years. Think about that for a moment. He did this by putting together an attractive package of policies which reached out to the centre ground; by running a professional campaign and by charismatic leadership. Blair, for all his mistakes over Iraq, remains the best political communicator the Labour Party has had for many decades. Corbyn showed he can win a leadership election against a poor internal candidate but let's see if can persuade the country to win one general election, let alone three.

I don't disagree with much of that, but that doesn't change my point either.

To make Labour electable Blair turned his back on the socialist principles of the old Labour Party to embrace capitalism. Blair and his supporters purged the socialists and we had shiny new labour.

This second election proves the socialists never went away, they just had to sit and wait out the collapse of Blair's political vision.

The socialists are merely reclaiming what was once theirs, and the Blairites will need to put up or shut up.

That's how it was for the socialists in the last 15 years.

 

[Chicken Run]

I don't disagree with much of that, but that doesn't change my point either.

To make Labour electable Blair turned his back on the socialist principles of the old Labour Party to embrace capitalism. Blair and his supporters purged the socialists and we had shiny new labour.

This second election proves the socialists never went away, they just had to sit and wait out the collapse of Blair's political vision.

The socialists are merely reclaiming what was once theirs, and the Blairites will need to put up or shut up.

That's how it was for the socialists in the last 15 years.

Totally agree with all of the above, however now they appear to have got their party back they're gonna have to get used to being opposition at best until a modernist like Blair sometime in the mid 2020's says enough is enough and New Labour is re born!

 

[wellquickwoody]

People who aggressively claim Corbyn is an IRA sympathiser really have zero understanding of the nuances of political talks and negotiation and what it takes to bring peace to a country. Corbyn's talks lead to the first ceasefire. Thatchers government is now know to have been in secret talks with the IRA and they tried to blow her up! Rather forgiving of her I'd proffer.
The more militant on here would be happy to see the British military still pointlessly pounding away in NI which would of course mean the IRA would still be violently active.

I found this article interesting.

Please try to remember it's an opinion and should it differ to yours you are not entitled to become enraged. It makes you look a bit silly.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...-wrong-northern-ireland-so-was-nelson-mandela

People as stupid as you should not be allowed access to the interweb.

 

[The Clamp]

People as stupid as you you not be allowed access to the interweb.

If you are going to call someone stupid it's probably best you double check what you have written before posting.

 

[Leekbrookgull]

Deselection will go ahead,mark my words and caught a little bit of early morning TV and J/C is happy for these Afghanistan/Iraq investigations to proceed,never mentioned the air strike on aid convoy,s. Best £3 that i have ever spent !

 

[Leekbrookgull]

Woody,thats abit harsh as history tells us that Thatcher and Co were in talks.