The Jeremy Corbyn thread

[clapham_gull]

Indeed, some of the MPs probably should be in another party.

Why Corbyn will never be Prime Minister.

 

[Wardy's twin]

Small rump? are you just talking about the MPs, or the members of the party who overwhelmingly back Corbyn. Indeed, some of the MPs probably should be in another party. The policies advocated by the Labour party in its last manifesto were in no way extremely left-wing by historical standards. Somewhat to the right of Harold Macmillan in fact.

small rump is the 200,000 part of the party which supports left wing ideals rather than the 13+ million required to get elected

 

[ken tiler]

small rump is the 200,000 part of the party which supports left wing ideals rather than the 13+ million required to get elected

Isnt that the whole point of the labour party - to be left wing otherwise it might as well by the Tory party (which indeed it virtually was under Blar). It exists to be a democratic socialist party and reprisent the aspirations of its members as defined by its party conference.

 

[beorhthelm]

Isnt that the whole point of the labour party - to be left wing otherwise it might as well by the Tory party (which indeed it virtually was under Blar). It exists to be a democratic socialist party and reprisent the aspirations of its members as defined by its party conference.

nope, social democrats. small linguistic difference, substantial ideological difference. one is content to work within the framework of liberal democracy and capitalism, the other is content with state control and centralised economic planning. one has been reasonable succesful, one has been a failure at every attempt.

 

[drew]

Isnt that the whole point of the labour party - to be left wing otherwise it might as well by the Tory party (which indeed it virtually was under Blar). It exists to be a democratic socialist party and reprisent the aspirations of its members as defined by its party conference.

If that were the case we might as well resign ourselves to a permanent tory government! Blair kept to tory spending plans for the first term and then started to increase investment in the public sector. Domestically, it was all going very well until the bankers shafted us all.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Sorry Im baffled - what conspiracy theory are you talking about?

I am surprised you are baffled. The 'control of the media' conspiracy theory that we are currently discussing. There are many others. Here's a high profile one for you: https://www.theguardian.com/politic...after-backing-artist-behind-antisemitic-mural
Your approach seems to be to deny there is a problem. How else to interpret your request for people to provide examples of anti scemitism in the Labour Party for you when there are countless examples that you ignore. I find it odd that JC recognises there is a problem and you don't. He apologised for endorsing a mural containing racist imagery. He made a mistake and yet plenty of Labour people said he didn't need to apologise. This is why I am more concerned by JC's supporters than the man himself.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Isnt that the whole point of the labour party - to be left wing otherwise it might as well by the Tory party (which indeed it virtually was under Blar). It exists to be a democratic socialist party and reprisent the aspirations of its members as defined by its party conference.

No. The whole point is to get enough MPs elected to run the country. That means compromise - taking pure 100% proof socialism and diluting it to public taste. Blair did that perfectly. Better labour lite than conservative, if you are left of centre. Individual left wing voters cannot dictate national policies. One has to get over one's self. Unsurprisingly, the 'no compromise with the electorate' (a genuine slogan) imperative of the early 80s went the way it deserved to go - a series of crushing tory victories. One of my brothers, who is very 'old labour' hated Blair so much for 'sell out' he threatened to vote toty. He didn't seem to get it when I told him that would increase the liklihood of a conservative gorernment. That perfectly sums up 'idealistic' labour to me. Bottom line - if you want a conservative hegemony, keep backing Corbyn as labour leader. With the current tory shitshower, labour should be 20% ahead in the polls. Instead it is machine gunning itself in the foot over the defintion of antisemitism. You couldn't make it up. It makes me very angry. Corbyn and momentum are betraying the nation by making themselves unelectable and giving the tories a free hit. Disgraceful. And with momentum running the show it isn't going to end, not for another ten years I would guess.

 

[ForestRowSeagull]

If after Salah, Sizer, Eisen, Ken Livingstone, Jackie Walker, Marc Wadsworth, the mural, Palestine Live, IHRA, support for Hamas, “hand of Israel”, Press TV, the wreath incident & Willsman's NEC rant you STILL believe Corbyn is being “smeared” you really need to give your head a wobble. Don't ask for evidence, receive said evidence then continue to pretend anyone ever gave it to you. The cult of Corbyn is a mess, and the UK as a whole is so much worse off for it as a result. I'm fed up of this god awful Tory government and their useless policies, why can't we just have an effective opposition to hold them to account.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

I fear we're headed for another "gang of four" moment where a bunch of Labourish MP's get so fed up with Corbyn and Co that they decide to for "alternative Labour" or some other shit led by Umana or someone like him. This will dilute the vote further and give the Tories even more breathing space.

It's depressing to see the Labour Party reduced to a laughing stock with Jezza only speaking to the idiots that support him at "mass rallies" where they're all whooping and hooting and it doesn't matter a jot what he says. meanwhile the rest of the country just thinks he's a sixth form socialist who is only worth contempt.

 

[Chicken Run]

I fear we're headed for another "gang of four" moment where a bunch of Labourish MP's get so fed up with Corbyn and Co that they decide to for "alternative Labour" or some other shit led by Umana or someone like him. This will dilute the vote further and give the Tories even more breathing space.

It's depressing to see the Labour Party reduced to a laughing stock with Jezza only speaking to the idiots that support him at "mass rallies" where they're all whooping and hooting and it doesn't matter a jot what he says. meanwhile the rest of the country just thinks he's a sixth form socialist who is only worth contempt.

This, Corbyn only has apx 550,000 true supporters, he’s gonna need millions more if he wants the hot seat! I don’t think his got the bollox or the minerals for it which he knows!

This charade will continue until he dies too as he will lose the next election and as before he won’t roll over.

 

[Wardy's twin]

Isnt that the whole point of the labour party - to be left wing otherwise it might as well by the Tory party (which indeed it virtually was under Blar). It exists to be a democratic socialist party and reprisent the aspirations of its members as defined by its party conference.

the demographics of this country has changed greatly since Labour party was started, people are generally wealthier and concepts such as 'working class' are much less clear than they were. There is a big difference between a democratic socialist party and the current labour leader and supporters. I guess everyone will have their own opinion but it would be better to have a left wing Tory (new Labour) party in power than right wing driven by its extreme right.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

This, Corbyn only has apx 550,000 true supporters, he’s gonna need millions more if he wants the hot seat! I don’t think his got the bollox or the minerals for it which he knows!

This charade will continue until he dies too as he will lose the next election and as before he won’t roll over.

That's the problem right there. I don't think he "knows" this at all. Whenever he's under pressure he runs to another rally of the faithful and speaks to the tiny group of fanatics who support him.

Looking at those cheering morons I think he reassures himself that he's a winner and thus empowered to carry on spouting his ludicrous shit.

 

[Chicken Run]

That's the problem right there. I don't think he "knows" this at all. Whenever he's under pressure he runs to another rally of the faithful and speaks to the tiny group of fanatics who support him.

Looking at those cheering morons I think he reassures himself that he's a winner and thus empowered to carry on spouting his ludicrous shit.

He’s only comfortable speaking to the sheep that follow him, any fool can do that, send him to a Blackburn shopping centre on a Saturday to convince the natives that immigration is something to be embraced, maybe to Canary Wharf on a Friday lunchtime to speak to the city slickers about how negative capitalism is or how about the Faslane to tell the locals when he’s in power they will all lose their jobs!!

He’s a wimp and prefers standing in front of his fellow beardy gimps, Islington luvvies and students at Glastonbury!

 

[ken tiler]

I am surprised you are baffled. The 'control of the media' conspiracy theory that we are currently discussing. There are many others. Here's a high profile one for you: https://www.theguardian.com/politic...after-backing-artist-behind-antisemitic-mural
Your approach seems to be to deny there is a problem. How else to interpret your request for people to provide examples of anti scemitism in the Labour Party for you when there are countless examples that you ignore. I find it odd that JC recognises there is a problem and you don't. He apologised for endorsing a mural containing racist imagery. He made a mistake and yet plenty of Labour people said he didn't need to apologise. This is why I am more concerned by JC's supporters than the man himself.

I assume you are referring to idea that Jewish people control the media banks etc. I never impied any such thing and I accept that this could be antisemitic. Marc Wordsworth didnt know that the MP was Jewish, but objected to her as a right wing anti corbyn MP colluding with ta paper who are vehemently anti Corbyn. Im sure he would have said the same thing to Chuka Umanna. I havent ignored examples of anti-semitism in the labour party. You just havent given me any and I cant find any either. If you show me examples of genuine anti-semitism that fall into the main body of the IHRA defintion, I will agree with you.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

If after Salah, Sizer, Eisen, Ken Livingstone, Jackie Walker, Marc Wadsworth, the mural, Palestine Live, IHRA, support for Hamas, “hand of Israel”, Press TV, the wreath incident & Willsman's NEC rant you STILL believe Corbyn is being “smeared” you really need to give your head a wobble. Don't ask for evidence, receive said evidence then continue to pretend anyone ever gave it to you. The cult of Corbyn is a mess, and the UK as a whole is so much worse off for it as a result. I'm fed up of this god awful Tory government and their useless policies, why can't we just have an effective opposition to hold them to account.

Not forgetting the Falkalnds which he thinks he can hand 'back' to Argentina. History means nothing to him.

 

[ken tiler]

Yes I do think theres a concerted campign smearing Corby, as does that well-known left wing newspaper The Argus commented today "this issue is being used by some as a cloak for challenging Mr Corbyn’s leadership.". Perhaps you could help me unwobble my head, I am really open to persuation, and point to why those examples given above fall within defintion of anti-semitism as defined by the IHRA

 

[ken tiler]

Interesting. I rather think that if you compromise you will get neo-con hegenomy anyway, but just slightly diluted. Anyway there is already a party that performs this function called the Liberal Democrats, why not join them?

The last labour manifesto under Corbyns leadership was widely popular and the labour vote was the biggest since Atlee. The current "shitshower" as you put it has been created by his oponents in the media, opposition parties, and from the right-wing of his own party. As I pointed out before, Corbyn and his supporters are not rabid extreme left communists as portrayed, but historically rather soft-left in the mould of Wilson or Macmillan. I just dont get what all the fuss is about.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I assume you are referring to idea that Jewish people control the media banks etc. I never impied any such thing and I accept that this could be antisemitic. Marc Wordsworth didnt know that the MP was Jewish, but objected to her as a right wing anti corbyn MP colluding with ta paper who are vehemently anti Corbyn. Im sure he would have said the same thing to Chuka Umanna. I havent ignored examples of anti-semitism in the labour party. You just havent given me any and I cant find any either. If you show me examples of genuine anti-semitism that fall into the main body of the IHRA defintion, I will agree with you.

you could try using google old chap.
I typed in Labour party member accused of anti scemitism and found the following straightaway;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45014771

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...arnet-jews-jeremy-corbyn-israel-a8473501.html
(over representation of Jews in the capitalist ruling class ? said by a local activist and defended by members of Momentum. I particularly wanted to highlight that bit in case it got lost in the series of links). Oh and allegiance to a foreign government-lovely little conspiracy theory there.

https://news.sky.com/story/labour-suspends-councillor-jim-sheridan-after-anti-semitism-rant-11475559
('they' -the Jews- and their Blairite plotters are apparently doing something to the party and country)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45086365

I could go on but I don't need to. It appears that Momentuim accepts there is a problem with anti scemitism in the Labour Party even if you don't.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...sm-more-widespread-than-thought-momentum-says

Now I'm a little tired from all the copying and pasting doing YOUR research so I'm going to watch the Test Match.
If you see no problem with the anti scemitism infesting the Left then just be honest about it but don't insult the intelligence of this board by claiming it does not exist. As a by the by I don't wish to insult you or your views , fully believe your good intentions and have not seen any anti scemitism in your posts. I just think you are in denial.

 

[ken tiler]

No ~I think you are muddling this up with communism. Democratic Socialism is used to define the objectives of some local Labour Parties, including Pendle in Lancashire, for example. http://www.pendlelabour.com/AimsandValues.htm

 

[Ernest]

Not forgetting the Falkalnds which he thinks he can hand 'back' to Argentina. History means nothing to him.

Hopefully he will hand YOU to them as well for being such a SILLY billy