The Islamic Future of Britain

[GT49er]

To be fair though, those of us who are a long way away from all of this can only really go on the 'facts' that are presented to us. And you really have to admit that what has been presented as fact on this and many other threads leaves much to be desired and doesn't stand up to the most basic scrutiny.

It began with the weird extrapolation of a small amount of carefully chosen data which is far less worrying than the Elvis Impersonator information used to show it for what it is. Then we had some interesting and sensationalised info from the EDL and other far right groups about Sweden and then Soulman's usual hyperbowl. None of this has been cited and as i said none of it stands up to any kind of scrutiny.

For every person on here claiming there is a Muslim problem in the UK there is another suggesting there is not.

The only conclusion that can be drawn from threads like this is that there are a few people on NSC who are crying 'the end of the world is nigh' and constantly use NSC to spread dodgy propaganda about their Evil Muslim agenda.

I have spent too much time arguing on these kinds of thread and they never change...... I will soon be told that i don't know what I am talking about because I live a long way away and wasn't born in Tower Hamlets or other carefully selected areas that have social issues and a high proportion of brown people (ignore any other factors that may actually be causing the social problems and focus on religion).

Reasonable post. Yes, there are scare stories, and lies on both sides, and statistics which may or may not stand up to scrutiny (even in one case a statistic of 99.9999% being quoted which you saw, even though it was only what the poster 'imagined' to be the case!)

However, tell me it's just Daily Mail readers (I'm not one, by the way) getting their knickers in a twist if you like (and someone no doubt will) - but it is a fact that there are problems here in the UK (and obviously in other parts of the world). I don't know if they can be solved peacefully or not - I hope so, but I rather doubt it with ISIS (or whatever they're called now) beheading people like it was the Middle Ages over again, and Boko Harum (sorry, I know it's probably not spelt like that) in Africa (but not totally without support over here) insisting that girls mustn't be educated and must have FGM, there are, and will continue to be, problems.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

using common sence would tell anyone to simply dismiss the whole shebang as nothing more than a bunch of folk tales and allegories. the authors of those text intended them to be taken literally, and the original christian churches expected one to follow both texts (they came in one binding ffs). to claim otherwise is stunningly ignorant of history, alot of history has been caused by differing "interpretations". you might believe your god requires one to think, your church might allow you that flexibility, but millions (billions?) in history and today do otherwise and accept the diktats from their church.

One knows they are folk tales and allegories, and one tells others they are, too. There is a great deal of wisdom in there, which is why they have stood the test of time and been handed down.

Re following both OT and NT stuff, the OT describes very clearly the stuff you should not eat as a practising Jew. The NT states clearly there is not really anything you can't eat. That's an obvious example, but Jesus Christ spent a lot of if not most of his time opposing and rubbishing and challenging the over-strict interpretations of OT stuff by the religious authorities of the time. It is mainly what led to his crucifixion. He was, 2,000 years ago, applying common sense.

I would accept that in history, people "did as they were told" and that all sorts of crap went on. I would maintain that is far, far less the case now. All the mainstream churches in this country in my experience would encourage people to use their loaf.

 

[beorhthelm]

I would accept that in history, people "did as they were told" and that all sorts of crap went on. I would maintain that is far, far less the case now. All the mainstream churches in this country in my experience would encourage people to use their loaf.

i would say they could do alot better than "encourage" by jettisoning the Old part, as im aware some evangelical groups do. makes for a much "nicer" religion with out all that anti-xyz carp. those keeping it in the text imply they believe it is important to the religion and the teaching.

 

[BadFish]

Reasonable post. Yes, there are scare stories, and lies on both sides, and statistics which may or may not stand up to scrutiny (even in one case a statistic of 99.9999% being quoted which you saw, even though it was only what the poster 'imagined' to be the case!)

However, tell me it's just Daily Mail readers (I'm not one, by the way) getting their knickers in a twist if you like (and someone no doubt will) - but it is a fact that there are problems here in the UK (and obviously in other parts of the world). I don't know if they can be solved peacefully or not - I hope so, but I rather doubt it with ISIS (or whatever they're called now) beheading people like it was the Middle Ages over again, and Boko Harum (sorry, I know it's probably not spelt like that) in Africa (but not totally without support over here) insisting that girls mustn't be educated and must have FGM, there are, and will continue to be, problems.

There are certainly some problems with extremists across the globe. I an just not sure that the kind of misrepresentation of information that we see on these kinds of threads is helpful in dealing with them.

 

[Soulman]

There are certainly some problems with extremists across the globe. I an just not sure that the kind of misrepresentation of information that we see on these kinds of threads is helpful in dealing with them.

What misrepresentation BF.
1400 groomed in Rotherham, grooming in Oxford, Derby, Bradford, Keighley, Odham etc, or the beheading of Drummer Rigby, the 85+ Sharia Courts, the poll showing over 30% of British Muslims want Sharia Law, the beheading of one or soon to be two British citizens, the killing of 7/7/2005......what misrepresentation do you mean?

 

[BadFish]

What misrepresentation BF.
1400 groomed in Rotherham, grooming in Oxford, Derby, Bradford, Keighley, Odham etc, or the beheading of Drummer Rigby, the 85+ Sharia Courts, the poll showing over 30% of British Muslims want Sharia Law, the beheading of one or soon to be two British citizens, the killing of 7/7/2005......what misrepresentation do you mean?

All of that, you are constantly using the actions of the extremist few to marginalize and condemn an entire religion.

 

[The Truth]

All of that, you are constantly using the actions of the extremist few to marginalize and condemn an entire religion.

Badfish, your narcissist enemy will have to agree with you here.

Well said.

 

[kevo]

how many mosques were there in Britain 50 years ago? how many today?

the Union Jack could change Thursday!

What people are concerned about is the direction this country is going in,people with children & grand children

If you are so concerned about Britain, why have you chosen to live in France?

 

[pastafarian]

Utter horse crap yourself. As a trained and qualified preacher in one of our mainstream Churches, one is trained to exercise common sense.
In my training I was taught that the creation story is just that - a story. Only fairly extreme people will accept it as true.
The New Testament is the Christian interpretation of previous Jewish teachings - sensible reinterpretations of some of the too narrow interpretations that had come down - why shouldn't I heal people on a Sunday, Jesus said, and got in trouble for doing so. That is why they crucified him.
Of course there are inconsistencies between the New Testament and the old, but to say that the religious texts are supposed to be followed in their entirety is absolute and total rubbish and shows up the ignorance of people who make such comments.
A Christian belief is a way of dealing with the world in a sensible way, not an inflexible set of rules to be slavishly followed. Anybody sensible who has a Christian Belief knows that's their God requires them to use the thinking material that they have between their ears.
And the same would go for all the other major faiths as well.

The thing is whilst you might be the progressive or reasonable face of modern Christianity there are plenty of Christians who are completely not and do believe in the literal word of the Old Testament,

Taking a bad example you have the Westboro Baptist church who are all fire and brimstone.
I have watched Joel Osteen preach to stadiums of 80,000 how people should avoid pig and shellfish to honour God.(he claims to have a million followers in the US and further millions abroad)
Back here at home you only have to watch Revelation TV (who i believe have one of the biggest followings for a religious TV channel in this country)on sky or Freeview and the viewpoints of some of their guests.A frequent guest of theirs is Dr Grady McMurtry who preaches that the Old Testament cannot be disputed hence his ridiculous stance on creation,the flood,homosexuality etc etc.
Africa fares not much better,South Africa seems to have a bit of a problem with this,Nigeria has a cuckoo problem with extremist christians citing the old testament and jesus at the same time and i went to a massive christian gathering in a field in Uganda(plenty of fire and brimstone there too) where the minister was preaching the wrath of God should you disobey the Old Testament, unfortunately the locals lapped it up and were throwing their hard earned shillings into the collection buckets

I agree with you its ignorant to say that the christian religious texts should be followed in their entirety but the fact of the matter is christians all over the planet are doing just this right now.

I am sure you personally are applying common sense when it comes to the new and old testament, it would seem however that there are plenty who would simply say you have lost your way

 

[pastafarian]

All of that, you are constantly using the actions of the extremist few to marginalize and condemn an entire religion.

I think thats the big question though isnt it,which is virtually impossible to answer.
Just how many British muslims are supporting the actions of this minority (and it is an extremist minority few that are tarnishing British Muslims).

The perception(and i agree its only a perception fuelled in part by the media) is that a large number of young muslims do in some way shape or form support the more extreme values of Islam,values that are alien to most that live here,I have no idea if 30% want sharia as quoted above,i have never heard that figure,it seems worryingly over the top.

The main problem as i see it is that apart from a number of muslim cultural leaders who do publicly speak out against the radicals,usually it seems at the behest of politicians or others in power for the sake of community cohesion there is no grass root demand for muslim radicals to be weeded out of the system.

When their religion has been aggrieved they are capable of rallying in their 1000`s in a matter of hours to demonstrate. Surely the hijacking of their religion by these extremists should have them protesting in the tens of thousands.......and yet they dont come.

the silence is deafening.

 

[BadFish]

I think thats the big question though isnt it,which is virtually impossible to answer.
Just how many British muslims are supporting the actions of this minority (and it is an extremist minority few that are tarnishing British Muslims).

The perception(and i agree its only a perception fuelled in part by the media) is that a large number of young muslims do in some way shape or form support the more extreme values of Islam,values that are alien to most that live here,I have no idea if 30% want sharia as quoted above,i have never heard that figure,it seems worryingly over the top.

The main problem as i see it is that apart from a number of muslim cultural leaders who do publicly speak out against the radicals,usually it seems at the behest of politicians or others in power for the sake of community cohesion there is no grass root demand for muslim radicals to be weeded out of the system.

When their religion has been aggrieved they are capable of rallying in their 1000`s in a matter of hours to demonstrate. Surely the hijacking of their religion by these extremists should have them protesting in the tens of thousands.......and yet they dont come.

the silence is deafening.

A fair point Pasta but there is a fair bit of information out there as to the reasons that more moderate Muslims aren't condemning the more radical ideas.

We don't expect that as a reasonable and moderate Christian someone like Daveinsouthampton should speak out about the Westboro Baptists or my mother in law. Just like I have never felt the need to distance myself from the ideas of Richard Dawkins even though I consider him a more extreme atheist than I.

So I question the logic of our need for the muslim community to publically distance its self from the extremists just because of a tenuous shared belief. This is surely only necessary if for some reasons we believe that moderate Muslims are some how partly to blame for the actions of the extremists or that they have some kind of connect with them.

Again this is part of the rhetoric that somehow all Muslims should shoulder the responsibility for what a few do. I disagree with this kind of generalization.

I don't know how many Muslims any parts of the extremist doctrine but one thing I am sure of is that if we continue to assume that they do and treat them all as terrorists and extremists then they are far more likely to become those things. It is a self fulfilling prophecy IMHO.

 

[pastafarian]

A fair point Pasta but there is a fair bit of information out there as to the reasons that more moderate Muslims aren't condemning the more radical ideas.

We don't expect that as a reasonable and moderate Christian someone like Daveinsouthampton should speak out about the Westboro Baptists or my mother in law. Just like I have never felt the need to distance myself from the ideas of Richard Dawkins even though I consider him a more extreme atheist than I.

So I question the logic of our need for the muslim community to publically distance its self from the extremists just because of a tenuous shared belief. This is surely only necessary if for some reasons we believe that moderate Muslims are some how partly to blame for the actions of the extremists or that they have some kind of connect with them.

Again this is part of the rhetoric that somehow all Muslims should shoulder the responsibility for what a few do. I disagree with this kind of generalization.

i take your point

but your mother in law,richard dawkins and the Westboro baptits are not lopping off peoples heads if they were i would hope you would take to the streets,or at least have a stern chat with your mother in law
christian groups do frequently protest against westboro as it happens.

There simply must be a collective responsibility to act,lets face it the minority here are not simply running up loads of parking fines.

Can you imagine the message if a few hundred thousand muslims marched in london with placards saying IS Burn In Hell as opposed to the normal burn in hell placards we are used to seeing.

 

[BadFish]

i take your point

but your mother in law,richard dawkins and the Westboro baptits are not lopping off peoples heads if they were i would hope you would take to the streets,or at least have a stern chat with your mother in law
christian groups do frequently protest against westboro as it happens.

There simply must be a collective responsibility to act,lets face it the minority here are not simply running up loads of parking fines.

Can you imagine the message if a few hundred thousand muslims marched in london with placards saying IS Burn In Hell as opposed to the normal burn in hell placards we are used to seeing.

I agree, a very powerful message woould be sent and perhaps the Islamic community could do more.

I just don't feel comfortable blaming others for their inaction based on the fact that they share the same fate.

Perhaps it would be more useful to look into the reasons that some Muslim's have turned to extremism and see what can be done about that.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

What misrepresentation BF.
1400 groomed in Rotherham, grooming in Oxford, Derby, Bradford, Keighley, Odham etc, or the beheading of Drummer Rigby, the 85+ Sharia Courts, the poll showing over 30% of British Muslims want Sharia Law, the beheading of one or soon to be two British citizens, the killing of 7/7/2005......what misrepresentation do you mean?

No point wasting your time and effort trying to tell people. Seriously it is wasted energy. There is enough evidence out there to tell you what direction our country and the EU is heading in. If people want to stick their heads in the sand, let them be. They will realise one day what a bad mistake this country and other countries in the EU have made. What I can't understand is why we allow certain aspects of Sharia to operate, when in other countries the very same thing to cause harm on other people. It really just shows you how confused people have become over the whole issue.

 

[Gregory2Smith1]

If you are so concerned about Britain, why have you chosen to live in France?

because I'm British and I do intend on returning to live there in the future

 

[pastafarian]

I just don't feel comfortable blaming others for their inaction based on the fact that they share the same fate.(think you meant faith)

feeling comfortable has stopped being an option

 

[pastafarian]

What I can't understand is why we allow certain aspects of Sharia to operate,

im sure someone will be along shortly to explain the benefits

 

[Hatterlovesbrighton]

im sure someone will be along shortly to explain the benefits

Because we've been allowing religious courts to operate for yonks. The Jewish courts that operate here cover the same basic areas as the Islamic courts. Mostly deal with financial issues.

 

[Steve Foster]

Question to Muslim extremists:

There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the World.
There are 14 million Jews in the World.

What is it about the Jews, that you hate so much & why do you want them wiped off the face of the earth?

 

[Tom Bombadil]

1) I doubt there are any muslim extremists reading this.
2) Well done for making an unpleasant thread even more hysterical