[Albion] The injustice against Liverpool

[Mellotron]

What I noticed about that audio was how panicked they all sounded. At cricket, it's all very calm. Has the bowlers leg gone over the line? Does the ball pitch inline? Has it hit the pad or bat? Is it hitting the stumps?

Here the audio is things like "It's clumsy" in panicked voices. It's all subjective. They should be applying a specific law and testing against it. In this case, was it a clear foul? Yes therefore it is a penalty. Where the ball went afterwards etc was irrelevant. It's a foul. It's a penalty.

They need a process not "Right lads what do you think about this one? Equally, the ref needs to keep quiet until it's done. Asking Are we there yet? Never helped anyone.

Yup. Has to be a repeatable and consistent process.

Also the ref should be able to go somewhere away from players. Players HAVE to f*** off at this point. Immediate yellow otherwise.

 

[Mellotron]

The belief that just because the VAR officials have computers and stuff that they could and should get everything right is quite naive.

Should they get everything right? No.
Should it be a LOT better than a single human ref with one pair of eyes and a split second decision to make? Abso-f***ing-lutely.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

We see ourselves as above mind games / criticism / implied criticism / admitting the possible fallibility of refs or VAR

Which is one of the main reasons we'll continue to be on the receiving end of no less egregious but much less high profile "mistakes"

If the club very publicly make it aware that they are vehemently opposed to VAR seeking to 'redress the VAR balance to Liverpool' then, who knows, maybe that will top-trump blatant decisions going in Liverpool's favour on Sunday. Worth putting it out there IMHO

 

[Mellotron]

If the club very publicly make it aware that they are vehemently opposed to VAR seeking to 'redress the VAR balance to Liverpool' then, who knows, maybe that will top-trump blatant decisions going in Liverpool's favour on Sunday. Worth putting it out there IMHO

You know Fergie would be all over that.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Apparently the difference between pre VAR correct calls and incorrect calls is 2 percent

 

[Mellotron]

Still think the biggest issue with VAR is not sticking to the original remit of using it for absolute howlers - ie clear and obvious errors. It consistently gets involved in decisions that are absolutely nowhere near "clear and obvious".

My ideal scenario would see VAR used about 5-10 times a season, for ones like the Henry handball where there can't be any debate. However, human nature is such that we've spent so much money on it and all these people are employed, so we have to find things for them to do, don't we?

And yes, I know everyone's line for what is clear and obvious differs. But I think we're nowhere near it right now.

 

[Iggle Piggle]

About 40 seconds in if anyone cares

 

[Brok]

What they want, is for every single decision to go their way the following week. And they will get it

So you reckon VAR will give a dodgy decision against us to make up for one they gave against Liverpool? That won't happen, not even VAR are that stupid.



But, there again,

 

[Seagull58]

That's the telling thing, isn't it?

As much as it's difficult to understand how the VAR chaps thought a goal had initially been awarded, it's impossible to understand how they didn't notice the lack of goal celebration and that the game re-started with a free-kick in the Spurs half. What were they looking at?

Their betting slips

 

[Mellotron]

About 40 seconds in if anyone cares

As others have said before, the audio is SO chaotic.

When the VAR says it's late, and it's clumsy - surely that's the point the referee should go and have a look?

 

[Mellotron]

That's the telling thing, isn't it?

As much as it's difficult to understand how the VAR chaps thought a goal had initially been awarded, it's impossible to understand how they didn't notice the lack of goal celebration and that the game re-started with a free-kick in the Spurs half. What were they looking at?

I'm sure they did notice.

But my understanding is the rules say that as soon as play restarts, they can't then overturn. Which is obviously ridiculous if true.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Can I press you on this?

Surely instant gratification and mindless thrill are integral to football culture? It's not like cricket where the act of scoring gets a polite ripple of applause, or basketball where the act of scoring happens dozens of times a game and gets the sort of level of hooray that might occur if your mate tripped on a kerb.

Goals are much more valuable in football, this is what I believe has elevated it above all other sports.

Think about the biggest moments of hedonistic bedlam you've been involved with in football. Reinelt, McShane, Storer, Cullip, Andone. Those will be some of the greatest moments of the lives of many of the people on here.

Now if with those goals, your celebration was diffused over the couple of minutes it takes for net to ripple to game to be restarted, rather than the instant, incomparable moment of joy which those who attended actually experienced, wouldn’t your football supporting experience have been so much the poorer?

Sure! I accept the mindless (a bit harsh) visceral thrill element of football. As I said earlier (to quote David Beckham) I have two types of goal celebrations - those where I celebrate as soon as I see the ref has given it (same as before VAR) and those where I'm not sure and so I wait for the VAR. I would occasionally celebrate a goal immediately when it is totally obvious that it won't be chalked off. What sets me apart from some people therefore is that I don't react like a schoolboy catching sight of his first stocking top at every time the ball appears to cross the line.

The lad who sits next to me is exquisitely reactive. This extends to all fouls and offsides which are all correct when the decision goes our way, and all wrong when they don't. Sorry but I simply can't abandon all reason at the football in order to have some sort of emotional apotheosis every few minutes. It's not* f***ing panto.

That said....I don't often call a goal wrongly, and when I do delay I bet I get as much pleasure as most when the goal is confirmed. A bit of delay can heighten the sensation don'cha know?

*Oh yes it is.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

That's the telling thing, isn't it?

As much as it's difficult to understand how the VAR chaps thought a goal had initially been awarded, it's impossible to understand how they didn't notice the lack of goal celebration and that the game re-started with a free-kick in the Spurs half. What were they looking at?

Thinking about this specific element of it all though - do we know what these officials are seeing at that time? They are sat in a dark room 100 miles away, seeing only what the TV production people choose to be playing on their various screens. I can see how (from some angles / zoomed in) you might not realise you were watching players about to take a low-key free-kick in the centre of the pitch 15 yards behind the halfway line, rather than a kick-off.

The error here HAS to be one of simple miscommunication.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Surprised they haven't had a 2 minute silence and candle lit vigil on Merseyside yet.

Maybe they'll do it tonight.

So here is the first of the posts that draw on the idea that scousers go on and on about Hillsborough. Only just spotted it. Very funny. I suppose of someone kills one of your family that would also be hilarious.

 

[Seagull58]

It maybe naive to think they should get everything right but it’s reasonable to assume they should get most things right — which they do. What is naive is the assumption that pre-VAR, things were better. Every Monday was filled with moaning about blatant offsides being missed and goals that should have been disallowed.

VAR isn’t going away so we have to ensure it’s done better. Simple incompetence, as with Liverpool on Saturday and us last season, can be reduced through better training, technology and procedures. A bigger issue for me is the inconsistent application of the laws of the game. We saw the Dunk handball penalty and the Luton handball penalty last week given, yet I can think of at least 4 handball incidents in the past 2 or 3 weeks that seemed far more obvious but not given. And the over-the-top tackles that get straight reds. Sometimes given, sometimes not. Offsides, again, with 'interfering with play' interpreted differently from one game to the next. These laws and their application need to be really nailed down, published and discussed, with clear examples of what’s included and what isn’t. There may still be inconsistencies but there’ll be fewer. I also think VAR could include a judgement of "inconclusive" rather than a straight yes or no, as it’s supposed to rule only on clear errors rather than aim for perfection.

VAR does not make decisions except for offsides so it's always "inconclusive" anyway. If VAR feels that the referee might change his decision if he has another look they tell him to go to the screen.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

So you reckon VAR will give a dodgy decision against us to make up for one they gave against Liverpool? That won't happen, not even VAR are that stupid.



But, there again,

I think the match officials as a group will be terrified of having their names associated with this disaster from last weekend and will subconsciously over-compensate.

 

[Audax]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Using on-field Refs to man the VAR as well is wrong. Two different skillsets to officiating live vs reviewing video evidence. Separate the roles completely. Let the on-field refs master the art of being on on-field ref, and have a completely separate pool of specifically trained VAR refs to man the video side.

Beyond that, they need a lot more transparency (both while the VAR decision is being made, and afterwards). They also need more help from available technology (where it has been proven). The Premier League not bringing in the semi-automated offside tech reminds me a lot of India refusing automation for LBW decisions for a few years. It wasn't until they themselves were on the receiving end of some absolute howlers that the automated LBW system would have prevented that they accepted it.

I'd also suggest that rather than VAR being the driving force on whether or not it gets used, hand it over to the Managers on the touchline. Give them, say, 2 or 3 challenges per half. If they use a challenge and the VAR finds in their favour, they keep the challenge. If the VAR finds the original decision correct, the challenge is lost. We'll suddenly see VAR only being used when either the Managers are certain a howler has taken place, or when they are utterly desperate and are hoping that a howler has happened.

Finally ... there is a desperate need for some genuine, real, accountability at referee level. Both on-field and VAR. PGMOL needs to be tracking the performance of individual refs over time. They need to be rewarding consistently high performing refs, and dealing with underperforming refs. In particular, they need to be monitoring the data on referee performances to root out any possibility of referees who are showing consistent bias (whether deliberate or unconscious).

 

[Dirty Dave]

I'm sure they did notice.

But my understanding is the rules say that as soon as play restarts, they can't then overturn. Which is obviously ridiculous if true.

That is the law of the game. Apparently the VAR official realised the error after the restart but failed to notify the referee.

I think what should of happened is the referee should have been told of the error. Ref stops the game and goes to the bench. Discuss situation with both managers and captains, explaining that goal can't now be given.

Two options are given;
1. Continue with match
2. Spurs allow Diaz to run through and score unchallenged.

Obviously if managers can't agree then it would have to be option 1 but that would have added a lot of spice to remainder of match

 

[Colonel Mustard]

If the club very publicly make it aware that they are vehemently opposed to VAR seeking to 'redress the VAR balance to Liverpool' then, who knows, maybe that will top-trump blatant decisions going in Liverpool's favour on Sunday. Worth putting it out there IMHO

That’s ridiculous. It panders to the conspiracy theorists who much prefer to assume that the world’s against them than the obvious truth — that people under pressure make cock-ups. Better training, technology and procedures is what’s needed. Some of these things can happen immediately while others will take time.

 

[Mellotron]

That is the law of the game. Apparently the VAR official realised the error after the restart but failed to notify the referee.

I think what should of happened is the referee should have been told of the error. Ref stops the game and goes to the bench. Discuss situation with both managers and captains, explaining that goal can't now be given.

Two options are given;
1. Continue with match
2. Spurs allow Diaz to run through and score unchallenged.

Obviously if managers can't agree then it would have to be option 1 but that would have added a lot of spice to remainder of match

Or change what is clearly a ludicrous law to allow a 30 second buffer for clear and honest mistakes like this to be reversed.