The handbook issued to Americans soldiers in Britain during WW2

[Hungry Joe]

Just finished reading this superb book for the second time and can't recommend it enough. I would strongly advise anyone, even with just a passing interest in the subject, to read it.

Thanks, just ordered this.

Really interesting OP. Although the guidance was based on a broad generalisation, as it had to be, it is interesting thinking about which parts of being 'British' still ring true.

 

[cunning fergus]

It's worse than that for your misinformed Ukranian chum. Even when Hitler attacked the Soviets and the Wehrmacht rolled into the Ukraine they were welcomed with open arms by the locals who saw the Nazis as liberators. Ukrainian volunteers were happy to join the SS and they were punished harshly by Stalin in the post war years.

They would have been better off with the Hun.

Quite understandable why the Ukrainians saw the Germans as liberators...........

http://www.holodomorct.org/history.html

Collectivisation in Ukraine could well have killed 10m, so in the final reckoning after WW2 Stalin May well have still been ahead of Hitler in the death league.

Of course neither touched the sides in comparison with Mao who also created famines (and some) with his commitment to Collectivisation. The estimates of the dead range from 30m to 70m.

Go Marxism!

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

There have also been simulations where the Germans did take the UK and interesting to see opinions on what would have happened thereafter. The US may not have come riding to the rescue with most of Europe under German control and especially if they had concentrated their forces in the west rather than divide them and attack Russia. Plus the Japanese would probably have been emboldened knowing Britain was out of the war on the other hand the US could have concentrated its whole might in the Pacific. Interesting.

The USA would not have come to our aid if Britain had (by some miracle) fallen to the Nazis. It's not really clear how things would have panned out. Japan would still have attacked pearl harbour in all likeliehood but Hitler would clearly not declared war on America with Britain out of the way.

I suspect that had Germany not lost the battle of Britain then the war in the East against the soviets may have resulted in a German victory. The attrition suffered by the Luftwaffe as it dashed itself against the RAF was massive.

Hitler had a great affection for the British as soldiers and empire builders. He sought peace repeatedly even after war was declared. It all boils down to two words. Winston Churchill. Single handedly,using rhetoric and obstinacy, he kept this country in the game. Appeaserslike Halifax and chamberlain would have had us suing for peace after Dunkirk...which is exactly what Hitler expected.

 

[Seagull on the wing]

No worries, I thought that must have been what happened.

What area of military history do you work in? Do you mostly cover other wars, and WWII is an interest, or is WWII your specialist area?

My opinion that Germany were nowhere near being capable of mounting a successful invasion is not a minority view.

Before I joined the Royal Navy I was a sea cadet ....Lewes Rd..(1952).We were taught naval history and I carried on learning about the naval exploits of the British Empire...being born before the war, I studied WW2..then moved on to RAF and Army history...my father was wounded at Dunkirk...then researched my grandfather who died at the Somme in 1918 (the second battle of the Somme)...have looked at the Boar War and the American Civil War...so much to learn...apart from the Naval side I have not gone earlier than the American Civil War...lets say Fort Sumpter onwards.

 

[Brovion]

I'm not sure Hitler wanted Stalin in Europe, from what I can gather he wanted him to move south and attack the British possessions in India from the outset so as to get the bulk of the Soviet forces out of the way when the Germans did decide to invade them. The Nazi-Soviet pact was a hugely cynical piece of diplomatic manoeuvring from both sides; for the Germans it covered their backs whilst they attacked the West; for the Soviets it gave them time and space to recover areas they'd lost in 1920 and pick over the carcass of Central and Western Europe once they had exhausted themselves fighting another long war. There was also the need for them to protect their eastern provinces should the Japanese dare to attack them again as they had done at Nomonhan in August 1939.

As a consequence Poland was invaded on 17 Sept 1939 which then shut off the Baltic states from outside help and who in turn were knocked off one by one. The only failure was Finland, which the Soviets thought they could invade using local troops and got an embarrassing bloody nose as a consequence. In fact that conflict was the closest the West got to fighting the Soviets as the British and French agreed to send an expeditionary force to help but were hamstrung by the fact that to get to Finland they had to march through neutral Norway and Sweden. This all became irrelevant when the Finns sued for peace in March 1940. However, the offshoot of this was the German invasion of Denmark and Norway the following month.

One of my favourite David Low war cartoons sums up the cynicism of the Pact perfectly

Oh yeah, I'm not denying any of that (and I know you're a History teacher!) but war can make strange bedfellows and everyone has their own agendas. Looking at it from Halifax's point of view though as a politician he'd use anything he could to support his argument. The Soviets helped Germany once, could they do it again?

I believe there's also another story about Halifax from about this time in 1940. He was out walking on the Yorkshire Dales and he realised he couldn't bear the thought of Nazi jackboots stamping all over it and in his heart he knew that, even though it looked an impossible task, Churchill was right and Britain should never surrender. The head said negotiate but the heart said fight on. Not sure how true that is or whether it's a sort of 'reverse engineered' story to show he too could come up with "we'll fight them on the beaches" type sentiments, but I like it nevertheless!

 

[Flex Your Head]

This is one of the best books about WWII that I've ever read: Studs Terkel - The Good War



It's an oral history of the war from 'every day' Americans and won the Pulitzer Prize for General Non-Fiction in 1985. I was shocked when I first read it because, ultimately, for the Americans, WWII was a good war. It completely revived their economy and drove innovation and, apart from the 300,000 troops who served and died, pretty much eveyone else 'over there' saw their lives improve massively.
I was also shocked at how rife and pernicious the racism was between white American troops and their black comrades. In fact, it's wrong to refer to them as 'comrades' as there was absolutely no camaraderie between them.

I can't believe Hollywood lied to us

 

[easynow]

This is one of the best books about WWII that I've ever read: Studs Terkel - The Good War

View attachment 47530

It's an oral history of the war from 'every day' Americans and won the Pulitzer Prize for General Non-Fiction in 1985. I was shocked when I first read it because, ultimately, for the Americans, WWII was a good war. It completely revived their economy and drove innovation and, apart from the 300,000 troops who served and died, pretty much eveyone else 'over there' saw their lives improve massively.
I was also shocked at how rife and pernicious the racism was between white American troops and their black comrades. In fact, it's wrong to refer to them as 'comrades' as there was absolutely no camaraderie between them.

I can't believe Hollywood lied to us

You may like this article I recently read...

Excerpt from this bbc archive http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/96/a1921196.shtml

This is Allan Wilmot's story of serving in the Second World War. Allan was born in Kingston, Jamaica, in 1925 and served in the Royal Navy and the RAF.

"Being black did make a difference in World War Two, although I treated each person as an individual, according to the initial approach. I know for a fact that Black American servicemen where confined to non-combatant units until late 1944 when the whole scene changed — all the black fighting units were suddenly sent over to fight in Italy and the Middle East to invade enemy-held territories. The black units were led by white American officers, until orders came from Washington that racial discrimination in the American armed forces should be discontinued. Then experienced black servicemen got the opportunity to move up the promotion process to commanding positions.
The British scene was different — there was no official racial discrimination in the services, but seniority promotion for a black serviceman was rare, even though you were qualified to do the job. Excuses for non-promotion were always there, so you were simply allowed to carry on in the ranks, regardless of your ability. They didn't want black personnel in charge of white servicemen.
But we were treated very well by white civilians because they were aware that you had left your safe country to face danger and help them in their time of need. And white British servicemen, in my case, were fine. In the navy, on a small ship, you have to live close, so you automatically become a close unit - whether afloat or ashore, any difficulties that arise are quickly sorted out. In the RAF, again when on air-sea rescue duties, you are together as a crew. Most of the time, I was the only black, so no problem, but when I was on other duties and had to mix, there were some problems — mostly caused by stereotyping. People would say things like 'Because you're black you don't need to wash' and 'Where did you learn to speak English, if you live in trees?' At first I took offence, but after deep consideration I came to the conclusion that it was best for me to try and re-educate my colleagues, which I did.
I did socialise and went on quite a few dates with white girls — it was a novelty at the time. Some of my black brothers got married in the process. This caused frictions with white families, but I think it's natural. They pictured their loved daughter falling in love with a black man, and maybe eventually going abroad to live in the jungle and never seen again. That is what they immediately saw. With the white servicemen it was sheer jealousy — 'Why him and not me?' was the cry. 'What has he got that I ain't got?'
I got along fine with the white Commonwealth personnel because apparently they had been warned not to compare West Indians with their native population. A few did step out of line, but were dealt with accordingly. But I didn't get along with white American GIs. They were reluctant to accept the fact that the British black servicemen were a different race in social outlook. Many of the white American GIs were from the southern states of America and, although they were in Europe (a very different social scene), they couldn't face the changes that took place. So we had open wars, especially in dance halls and various places of entertainment, with the local whites as back-up on our side.
The black American GIs were a different story. We got along very well indeed - we British black servicemen were their protectors. At times, they were attacked by groups of white GIs, especially if they were in the company of white girls. If they attempted to defend themselves against the white GIs, police were always at hand to arrest the black ones for the stockade, so we would go to their rescue and try to prevent them being arrested. Because the US GI police had no jurisdiction over British servicemen, we could defend them (and ourselves) until the British police arrived on the scene, along with the ambulance for the wounded.

 

[The Wizard]

What a fantastic read. I'm only a young one (19) but am fascinated by all things about WW2, good post.

 

[Seagull on the wing]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Lucid Here is an interesting piece about using 'fireships' (shades of the Armada) to destroy the invasion fleet before it sailed...Operation Lucid...
Drake singed the King of Spain beard,Churchill wanted to singed Hitlers moustache..

 

[easynow]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Lucid Here is an interesting piece about using 'fireships' (shades of the Armada) to destroy the invasion fleet before it sailed...Operation Lucid...
Drake singed the King of Spain beard,Churchill wanted to singed Hitlers moustache..

Andddddd now I'm back to reading hours and hours worth of world war 2 wikipedia articles. Haha

 

[easynow]

What a fantastic read. I'm only a young one (19) but am fascinated by all things about WW2, good post.

Glad you and others like it. Lots of great information posted in this thread. cheers

 

[Raleigh Chopper]

Sorry Trig,they were very close. They had invasion barges all along the coast of Northern French ports,the main targets were Sussex and Kent some of Devon,they had already taken the Channel Islands...all that Hitler needed now was air superority to launch 0peration Sea Lion.
Our radar stations and airfields were being attacked,some times 3 times a day,we suffered a heavy loss of men and aircraft...the British pilots were exhausted...Had Goering continued for another couple of weeks it would.ve been all over. Then a lone german bomber saved the day...in the confusion of night it dropped it's bombs on London. Our reply was to put as many bombers over Berlin and retaliate,we lost quite a few of them and did very little damage, but infuriated Hitler and Goering (Goering had made a boast that no British bomber would ever bomb Berlin) so they went for all out bombing on London...this gave the RAF time to repair the airfields,radar station,get pilots from the Commonwealth and America,and produce more planes,delivered by women pilots...a much needed respite.
Although Hitler had more planes than us we had the advantage of watching them come over,put up planes to be ready for them,we saved fuel and flying time...our pilots were bailing out over friendly territory...theirs to capture...eventually Hitler realised that he could not invade and called off the invasion and turned his attention to Operation Barbarossa...the invasion of Russia.
Operation Sea Lion was a very very close to happening My Mum took us to Ringwood to an aunt who had a mud cottage in the countryside

Being a kid I wanted to go back to Brighton,loved watching the planes and the dogfights...little did I realise that people were dying up there,Brighton got it's share of Bombing...one hitting the road between our house and my cousins house opposite.

You obviously know your stuff, but did you know that the reason the invasion was postponed was because Hitler made the fundamental error of pinpointing the landings at a small coastal town called Walmington On Sea. Looking through his binoculars he saw Godfrey and his sister Dolly patrolling between Timothy Whites and the novelty rock emporium.
At that point he turned his attentions elsrwhere but as luck would have it, if Adolf had waited just 5 minutes he would have seen Godfrey dissappear into the gents or better still, doze off and the invasion would have gone ahead and we would now all be speaking German.

 

[Seagull on the wing]

Little is known of this story...evidently a German Nazi Uboat captain was taking a list of anti Nazis when he came to get a young soldiers name,the Home Guard captain stepped forward and said,"Don't tell 'im Pike"...The Uboat captain knew that it would be useless to invade facing such resistance and messaged Hitler who called the invasion off....Saved...Mr Jones the butcher decommissioned his delivery van.

 

[Triggaaar]

This BBC2 documentary, 'The Battle of Britain: The Real Story' goes along with my view that Germany were not close to mounting a successful invasion of Britain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td8bF6Xgb_Y

You can skip to 33:00 for some details on the effectiveness of the Luftwaffe bombing our airfields.